Is "better" equipment always ... better?

[jamesinnewcastl]

Hi

Happily I am not too fussed about the quality of the sound and so I escape any pressure whatever about quality - though I have bought a system with a 'name' that looks really professional and sleek - all seperate parts.

What I really hate is people who force me to listen to their bass thumping from their 'amazing' systems that are never loud enough for them - I'd happily......


Cheers
James

[ajgriff]

Originally Posted by Beobloke

And in case you're wondering where the money went, I'm guessing mainly on the 30 drive units per channel including two 18" bass drivers, 6000W of amplification per channel (they were active designs) and a matching pre-amplifier/controller with extensive DSP facilities.

Don't think I could cope with that in my living room.

Alan

[emeritus]

My late uncle had one of the valve NHS hearing aids in the late 1950's. The electronics were in a small leather satchel that could be worn under a coat, a mike that could be clipped under a tie, and an "Alice Band" headphone with a transducer that was located being the ear and relied on bone conduction. Circa 1960 he bought one of the first behind the ear transistorized hearing aids that I remember cost him over £100, no small sum in the days when a working man's basic wages were around £10/week, and he gave me the old NHS hearing aid to play around with. My memory is a bit hazy but I think it used a 45V HT and a 1.5V LT battery. The new one used a small Mercury battery. The only thing I have left today is the Alice band transducer. Without being pressed against anything it was virtually silent, but pressing it against a surface such as window glass or an empty 7" tape box, turned it into a loudspeaker.

I remember reading that the Russians bought a complete Swiss watch factory, shipped all the equipment back to Russia, and used it to manufacture the first mechanical Sekonda watches. I never had one of these, and the later battery-operated Sekonda analogue watches I had seemed to use components and cases sourced from the far east. No complaints about their reliability or accuracy. My wife's everyday watch is a battery-operated analogue Timex bought more that 30 years ago. The chromium plating is wearing off the edges of its plastic case, and I have replaced the expanding metal bracelet a few times, but she likes it for its clearly-legible dial, with a sweep second hand, date, all hours numbered and all minutes marked, a rare combination these days.

[dave walsh]

Watches aside... in my mind, what Beeobloke says [in post 40*] chimes with my comments at p19* and [originally] Meandumpster [post1*].

Dave W

[G4_Pete]

I used to mix and balance sound systems for performers for small audience venues for years sometimes tearing down and re installing and re sound checking twice in a day, high quality professional equipment. A month or so back I went to one of the premier quality large auditoriums in the country and all I wanted to do all evening was get at the sound desk person and balance the sound properly.
Or was that total subjectivity on my part? I think the point being is that no matter what it costs in the end do you enjoy listening to it.

Pete

[m0cemdave]

Pete:

I have the same problem. As well as wanting to knock 10dB off the level...

It is a curse of having been in the business, but the same thing probably happens in other fields of work.

[Bazz4CQJ]

Originally Posted by MrBungle

I disagree. The Casio F91W for example. Still around £8.

I've had quite a few of those watches. The actual watch lasts for ever, but every one that I've had has had the strap break after ~3(?) years. Am I alone in this?

B

[russell_w_b]

Am I alone in this?

No. And there you go! Spend more money and the strap will last longer. Someone needs to plot average wear against cost before breakage, if such-like is not out there already. My Seiko 5 mechanical (sixty-odd quid bought in 2001 and still worn - and accurate today) still has the original S/S strap.

All this watch talk reminds me of Trigger's broom. 'Good ol' watch, this. It's only had three new straps, two new glasses; four batteries...

[rontech]

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

There are signs you've left the real universe:

* All the small differences have mysteriously vanished.
* Prices have been scaled up by large factors.
* Every poster on internet fora lists all their equipment at the foot of every post.
* You suspect more effort went into choosing a product's name than in developing the product itself.
* Real, hard, science is like sunlight to a vampire, so pseudoscience is used instead.
* No-one is ever unsure which of two things is better.
* Things are designed for eye appeal, the ears have to live with it.
* Every ounce of equipment comes with a pound of justification.
* You can smell the fear, and the aura of insecurity is tangible. Anyone numerate and logical is seen as a threat.
* There are various words; soundstaging, granularity, authority, quantum, etc which are clues.

So if you start to get that feeling you aren't in Kansas anymore, lock your wallet!

I basically agree with your "various words" list. Interestingly I have had experience of soundstaging though. By soundstaging I mean the auditory impression thet the varoius sections of an orchestra sound as though one could actually walk around them. It is a bit like the difference between a single photo and the double photo when seen through a 3D viewer. Years ago a friend had a pair of large Lentek transmission line speakers and in his listening room the acoustic 3D effect was most impressive. The electronics were mid range Japanese early 80's. As an experiment, we took the speakers to my own house. I had a Quad valve amp, Garrard 405, SME 3009 and Pickering XSV 3000 cartridge at the time with Tannoy monitor gold speakers. When tried with the Lenteks, although the sound quality was quite excellent, the 3D effect was completely absent.

It seems "soundstaging" is a matter of speaker / listening room interaction and could well account for conflicting reviews etc.

[stevehertz]

That's why speakers are properly tested in anechoic chambers wrt 'out and out' performance. The chances are that your mate's room had ample opportunity to give rise to lots of reflected stuff - as you say. The effect is not a more detailed sound stage (which is simply left and right panning of the instruments or orchestra) but a result of the acoustic anomalies in the room. I mean, if a given pair of speakers sound 'amazing' in a certain room, then it's mission accomplished, but it's no reason to bestow legendary performance characteristics on them, and there is a danger of that as you point out.

[mhennessy]

Originally Posted by m0cemdave

Pete:

I have the same problem. As well as wanting to knock 10dB off the level...

It is a curse of having been in the business, but the same thing probably happens in other fields of work.

The trouble with smaller venues is you can't turn the drummer down!

Often, you can't persuade the guitarist(s) and bass to turn down their amps either. So you end up with the PA system basically just carrying the vocals and the bass end of the drum kit, so you have relatively little control over the final sound - most unsatisfying if you're used to studio work where you have complete control.

A lot of bands bring their own sound engineer and equipment rather than relying on the in-house tech (me!). Some of the worst sounds I've heard in that venue have come from some of the most expensive gear going. It's not what you've got, it's how you use it.

We all hear differently, so it's pretty much impossible to satisfy everyone. That partly explains the huge diversity in sound quality from different hi-fi speakers, of course.

[GMB]

The problem is in the question... "Better" must always be qualified by "for what purpose".

The classic mistake is people buy something that is thought of as "better" by people with a particular agenda and then apply it to a situation where maybe it is not better for their requirements.

This is what the specification sheets are vague about.

I used to tag along with a friend to the Hi Fi shows in London and I remember experiencing superb equipment. But often these setups relied on you sitting at a particular spot. So I asked what do you do if that is not practical. There were answers to that, where aligning and configuring the speakers differently would give a "less good" result but better over a wider area.

Another friend had their sports car given a racing tune-up. It surely made it "better" for racing, but they actually used the car to take the kids to school. He was showing this off to me when I was moved to point out that the tuned induction tubes had no air filters like the domestic configuration did. They lived up an unmade dusty track. One stone kicked up and entering the engine was not going to be good, and the general dust was setting it up for an even shorter life than racing cars usually have compared to the domestic variety. They hadn't thought of that!

[stevehertz]

Originally Posted by mhennessy

The trouble with smaller venues is you can't turn the drummer down!

Often, you can't persuade the guitarist(s) and bass to turn down their amps either. So you end up with the PA system basically just carrying the vocals and the bass end of the drum kit, so you have relatively little control over the final sound - most unsatisfying if you're used to studio work where you have complete control.

A lot of bands bring their own sound engineer and equipment rather than relying on the in-house tech (me!). Some of the worst sounds I've heard in that venue have come from some of the most expensive gear going. It's not what you've got, it's how you use it.

We all hear differently, so it's pretty much impossible to satisfy everyone. That partly explains the huge diversity in sound quality from different hi-fi speakers, of course.

I always had that very problem as lead guitarist in a band when playing small venues. Basically, the drummer is about 100W of 'volume'. So, to create a good sound, everyone else has to play at a volume whereby a proper balance is achieved otherwise the drummer totally swamps the sound. The result? as soon as it comes to a guitar solo, the bar owner comes running over and is telling me to turn the guitar down. But it was 'correct' to the other instruments! That's why these days I am a big fan of electronic drum kits, not only do they sound better than clanky acoustic kits in echoey venues, but they're also volume controllable. And they do kits that genuinely 'feel' like acoustic kits to play now.

[Beobloke]

Originally Posted by ajgriff

Don't think I could cope with that in my living room.

Alan

I'm sure you could as they are very subtle and elegant. Here's one speaker, and yes, those are 10" drivers you can see, so the speaker is around 7 feet tall...

[stevehertz]

Originally Posted by Beobloke

I'm sure you could as they are very subtle and elegant. Here's one speaker, and yes, those are 10" drivers you can see, so the speaker is around 7 feet tall...

That's subtle? Are you having a laugh?

[dave walsh]

Wireless World once featured a "Stereo Spread" system Beobloke, similar to that vertical cabinet but mounted horizontally on one panel. It was designed for a very large lounge but scaleable down. I can't recall how they were electrically linked together-perhaps capactive/inductors but it used very cheap [ex-TV] speakers maybe 30 of them-they were ten a penny then! Thousands of pounds less and mounted horizontally on a baffle frame close to the wall. The sound image spread out though spkrs on the left and right equally. It was said to be very realistic... especially if if you wanted a steam train rushing through your living space. Like the "poor man's" four channel vinyl system [with which you could use any old speakers for the back channels] this horizontal set up was also cheap and effective. Each unit only handled a percentage of the channel output so they didn't need to be costly!

Dave

[G4_Pete]

As far as expensive equipment and live performance goes I have attached a slide from the training manual I wrote for trainees that summarises the situation of trying to please everyone.

For those who have not been involved in stage work the 3 black speakers on the stage in the picture are fold backs that are mixed out of the desk so that performers hear what they need and the other speaker is the guitarists own kit which you often have no control of without confrontation! As mentioned the Drummer!! who if you are lucky can sometimes be put in a perspex sound box.

All that trying to be mixed and re-produced through very high quality audio system in a situation where the reverb changes when the sound adsorbing audience come in. If this gets recorded live the home listener then adds all their equipment in the sound path.


Pete

[emeritus]

In engineering, the best for a particular situation is not necessarily the most expensive. In an old post I recounted my boss's tale of his experience at Belling-Lee in the 1950's where they embarrassingly found that bell wire gave a much sharper picture than the super-duper low loss coax they had developed for the then-new ITV service: they were in a strong signal area and the losses in the bell wire eliminated the multiple reflections in the low loss coax that produced several strong delayed signals, smearing the picture.

[Beobloke]

Originally Posted by stevehertz

That's subtle? Are you having a laugh?

Er.....yes.

[bikerhifinut]

The original question is too loaded for anything other than the fairly predictable set of responses so far, and mine included I guess. There will always be those pieces of kit that seem to punch above their weight or seem to be tremendously underpriced, and they gain a deserved reputation because of it. Likewise there will always be the things that are expensive because of the quality of the materials, design and engineering/craftsmanship and that gain their status because they not only work well but have reliability and longevity which makes the initial price not so painful. And then there's the rest, from cheap to expensive that will vary from ok for the price to a complete waste of hard earned brass.

It doesn't matter what your hobby or collecting or other leisure interests are, there will always be the person who is more than happy with his modest item that functions perfectly according to that persons expectations and needs, and likewise it goes up the scale until eventually you get to the character that has to have the biggest and bestest "statement" item. 'Nuff said I think.
Where I used to work we called these chaps "Elevenerifes", because if you said you'd had a great holiday in Tenerife, he'd have been to "Elevenerife".

Some kit really is worth the high price, as an example I'd give you the Quad electrostatic loudspeaker, and at least nowadays a savvy punter can find a nice ESL57 for fairly reasonable money as an example.

Anyway, what does better mean? Better for what? I think thats been raised in this thread earlier also.

Andy.