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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 26th Jul 2021, 8:21 pm   #1
DMcMahon
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Default Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Brought this nice looking 1960's 4 track, mono, 3 speed, valve (plus 1 transistor to drive the VU meter), single motor reel to reel very recently, it was sold as running so hoped it would not require much work doing.

The tape deck is the Thorn/BRC DC43 tape deck chassis.

It was very well packed and appeared to arrive safely as box showed no damage

Decided to do the usual and open it up for a good inspection before powering up. Removed the tape spools and found a nasty crack in the plastic top panel near the Supply spool. Then noticed that the whole chassis was badly misaligned with it tilting forward and tilting down to the left.

After removing the top panel the cause became obvious, a wooden block that the left hand side of the chassis sits on and is secured to, had broken away from the wooden case, so no longer was supporting the left hand side of the chassis.

The sellers photos showed no damage to the top panel so I reckon it had a heavy drop during shipping and the wooden block broke away (glued originally) and the combination of the shock and heavy chassis cracked the top panel.

Have reglued the block. Also found that the right hand side panel of the wooden box was starting to come loose at the front so reglued that also.

Repairing the plastic top panel may be a bit more tricky, currently not able to press the damaged section back in .

David
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Old 27th Jul 2021, 10:51 pm   #2
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Visually checked that there are no paper capacitors fitted.

Powered up OK. Main HT voltage around 40 volts lower than it should be, actual voltage around 220V. Triple can (50uF/50uF/8uF) reservoir/filter/smoother capacitance and ESR measured good, ripple on the on the HT is good. (2V P-P at the reservoir C21).

Valve electrode voltages in the right ball park and no +ve voltage at the valve control grids. Mains transformer secondary output to the Selenium bridge rectifier is good. So Selenium bridge rectifier possibly suspect, could not get any resistance or diode voltage readings across any of its diodes ? Will not worry about this until have checked out Playback operation.

Checked out tape transport, fast rewind is good, fast forward is good until a lot of tape is on the take up spool then it seriously struggles, appropriate rubber idler wheel may require some remedial action.

Play does not work at all, the capstan shaft does not rotate. A quick look underneath and it looked like a drive belt between the motor pulley and the flywheel is missing. But looking at the DC43 tape deck manual there does not appear to be a drive belt.

So need to look more closely and determine how the motor drives the flywheel. The flywheel is pretty stiff to manually rotate.

David
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Old 28th Jul 2021, 6:54 am   #3
dazzlevision
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

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Originally Posted by DMcMahon View Post
Visually checked that there are no paper capacitors fitted.

Play does not work at all, the capstan shaft does not rotate. A quick look underneath and it looked like a drive belt between the motor pulley and the flywheel is missing. But looking at the DC43 tape deck manual there does not appear to be a drive belt.

David
Unless they have previously been replaced, there are two paper capacitors in this machine. C7 is a 0.003uF grey plastic cased axial Dubilier type on the printed circuit board and C23, a 0.003uF 300Vac working axial brown (or black) Hunts "Moldseal" type, wired directly across the primary of the audio output transformer.

Note that, C7 is shown as an 18pF type in the early service manuals parts list (models 3214, 4210, etc.) but the circuit diagram says 0.003uF and that value is the one that I have only ever seen fitted (and I've repaired a lot of these DC43 tape deck models). In very early production, I've noticed that no component is fitted in the holes for C7.

The capstan flywheel is connected to the motor pulley by the "drive puck wheel grinding assembly" (item 113 in the Thorn DC43 service manual). The swivel arm the wheel is connected to develops the hardened grease syndrome, preventing its free movement. You'll need to remove the motor in order to get to it.

The only belt in these DC43 deck models is for the tape counter drive, from the supply turntable.
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Old 28th Jul 2021, 7:42 am   #4
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Thank you very much Dazzlevision. I will check out C7, I did see that C23 across the output transformer was paper, I normally ignore the the output transformer paper capacitor as generally find they are fine, but obviously was incorrect to say there were no paper capacitors.

After studying the DC43 manual more I saw that the drive is via that puck wheel on the swivel arm, so hopefully will be just hardened grease.

David
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Old 28th Jul 2021, 7:55 am   #5
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

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Originally Posted by DMcMahon View Post
I did see that C23 across the output transformer was paper, I normally ignore the the output transformer paper capacitor as generally find they are fine, but obviously was incorrect to say there were no paper capacitors.
David
Happy to help.

I would advise the replacement of C23, as these Hunts Moldseals (metallised paper) are well known to go very leaky and in this circuit position, it will be under some stress.
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Old 28th Jul 2021, 8:47 am   #6
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Hi,
this thread is very useful as I have one of these on the to do it pile !
I didn't realise it was a valve / transistor hybrid until I looked at it a month or two ago...
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Old 28th Jul 2021, 10:42 am   #7
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Removed the motor and the first obvious thing seen is that the drive puck wheel was tilted over, i.e. not sitting level/horizontal, because the lower end of the spindle of the Primary Arm Assembly (item 109) had come out of the brass boss that it sits in, just about see this in Photo 2.

Also as in Photo 1 the outer end of the Drive Wheel Spring (item 111) is detached, I assume this must go onto the steel post (Primary Arm Stop item 115) but first couple of attempts to fit it failed, very difficult to get spring onto the post and at same time stop it coming off the other end.

The puck wheel swivels OK but I will strip and clean/relube.

Note in Photo 3 lots of the black tape (and yellow) that is used at various points particularly around the cable form is détériorating into a sticky mess, will clean a lot of this up.

David
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Old 28th Jul 2021, 7:39 pm   #8
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

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Originally Posted by DMcMahon View Post
Also, as in Photo 1 the outer end of the Drive Wheel Spring (item 111) is detached, I assume this must go onto the steel post (Primary Arm Stop item 115) but first couple of attempts to fit it failed, very difficult to get spring onto the post and at same time stop it coming off the other end.

Note in Photo 3 lots of the black tape (and yellow) that is used at various points particularly around the cable form is détériorating into a sticky mess, will clean a lot of this up.

David
The free end of the spring hooks over the "lug" punched into the motor sub-chassis - you can see it in the first photo - right hand side, towards the bottom. I usually secure it with a piece of PVC adhesive tape or a blob of traditional Evostik.

Yes, in some (but only some examples) of these recorders, the cable forming black PVC adhesive tape does go very sticky and is a real bind to clean up. Be careful how you clean the wires with a "trace" colour, as that will rub off fairly easily if a solvent is used (maybe try isopropyl alcohol first)! I use either cable ties or masking tape to replace the original.

Be mindful of the fact that most of those Erie carbon composition PCB type resistors will have drifted out of their tolerance bands by now.

You may also find the record level meter is U/S, if it is the "Smiths" branded type.
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Old 28th Jul 2021, 8:55 pm   #9
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Thank you dazzlevision, now you have pointed me to the correct place for the spring, it now should be easy.

I am cleaning up the cables with IPA, a tedious slow messy job, of course when the tape is removed and initial IPA cleaned it all gets worse, will use cable ties.

Thanks for the heads up on the VU meter, I hope this is not the case. Will bear in mind the potential out of tolerance Erie resistors.

David
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Old 28th Jul 2021, 10:08 pm   #10
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzlevision View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcMahon View Post
Also, as in Photo 1 the outer end of the Drive Wheel Spring (item 111) is detached, I assume this must go onto the steel post (Primary Arm Stop item 115) but first couple of attempts to fit it failed, very difficult to get spring onto the post and at same time stop it coming off the other end.

Note in Photo 3 lots of the black tape (and yellow) that is used at various points particularly around the cable form is détériorating into a sticky mess, will clean a lot of this up.

David
The free end of the spring hooks over the "lug" punched into the motor sub-chassis - you can see it in the first photo - right hand side, towards the bottom.
Looking at Photo 2 of Post 3 where there is black tape over the lug I would say that my first photo in Post 7 does not show the lug (it is out of shot).

David
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 9:16 am   #11
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Quote:
Looking at Photo 2 of Post 3 where there is black tape over the lug I would say that my first photo in Post 7 does not show the lug (it is out of shot).

David
Yes, you are correct, my mistake. The photos below, from a deck I dismantled, confirm this.
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 10:47 am   #12
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Thankyou dazzlevision, your photo 1 is a seriously stripped deck.

David
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 1:31 pm   #13
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

After a big clean up of the tape mess (still ongoing actually) cleaned and relubed the Drive Puck Wheel shaft and refitted the Puck wheel. Did not attempt to remove the Primary Arm assembly as quite a strip down to remove it.

Now having big problem getting the motor assembly back in correctly, despite numerous attempts it always fouls the Puck Drive wheel and Primary Arm assembly. Will keep trying.

David
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 1:51 pm   #14
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

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Cleaned and relubed the Drive Puck Wheel shaft and refitted the Puck wheel.

David
I meant the shaft of the Primary Arm assembly that the Puck Wheel swivels on, via the Secondary Arm Assembly.

David
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 2:49 pm   #15
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

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Now having big problem getting the motor assembly back in correctly, despite numerous attempts it always fouls the Puck Drive wheel and Primary Arm assembly. Will keep trying.

David
Yes, it’s a bit of a faff. I usually hold the swivel arm assembly out of the way with one finger (as far away as possible from where the motor pulley fits and then offer the motor assembly up to the three mounting studs. Alternatively, you could fix the swivel arm assembly out of the way with a length of solid core wire and when the motor is installed, remove it.

Make sure the spring is securely fixed with tape or glue, so it doesn’t come adrift from the notch punched in the motor sub deck metal chassis.
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 3:56 pm   #16
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

The problem is as far as I can see /tell is that it will not move enough to allow clearance, i.e. holding/securing it out of the way is not the problem.

I am taping up the spring and twice it still has managed to come off the lug. Just back from an outing so will have a fresh look
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 4:53 pm   #17
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Still struggling. The photo shows one of the positions I have tried and it fouls the spring. I have tried positioning the drive wheel in various positions but all end up with fouling stopping the motor going in fully.

It seems so far out that I think I must have something wrong or wrong technique. Another thing that does not seem correct is I cannot see how the speed change ramp will do anything, it does not appear to be making contact to be able to move the drive wheel ?

David
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 6:27 pm   #18
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

Hello David,

The "idler wheel" (113) and connecting swivel bracket (secondary arm assembly 112), with spring all look OK.

Are you sure the mechanism that alters the height of the idler wheel (i.e. effects speed changes) is fitted correctly?

The second photo shows the two parts that also project above the deck chassis (an idler wheel above it has been removed, to show the shaft of part 109):

White Nylon stepped speed change ramp 119 (the ramp part is below metal chassis)

Black metal shaft (primary arm assembly 109) which changes height according to which speed is selected.


The position of the white Nylon "peg" in the metal arc punched out of the chassis indicates the speed selected by the speed change knob and the height of the idler wheel.

The first photo shown the Nylon part below chassis.

Has the black metal part (109) been relocated correctly into the chassis (it was dislodged in transit to you)?
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 7:13 pm   #19
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

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Hello David,

The "idler wheel" (113) and connecting swivel bracket (secondary arm assembly 112), with spring all look OK. Good

Are you sure the mechanism that alters the height of the idler wheel (i.e. effects speed changes) is fitted correctly? It was not disturbed, I think it is OK but need to recheck, the bit that I am still missing is how the height of the wheel is actually altered.

The second photo shows the two parts that also project above the deck chassis (an idler wheel above it has been removed, to show the shaft of part 109): Need to check this.

White Nylon stepped speed change ramp 119 (the ramp part is below metal chassis)

Black metal shaft (primary arm assembly 109) which changes height according to which speed is selected.


The position of the white Nylon "peg" in the metal arc punched out of the chassis indicates the speed selected by the speed change knob and the height of the idler wheel.

The first photo shown the Nylon part below chassis.

Has the black metal part (109) been relocated correctly into the chassis (it was dislodged in transit to you)?
Yes
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Old 29th Jul 2021, 8:13 pm   #20
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Default Re: Ferguson 3216 Reel to Reel Check Out

The height of the idler wheel is changed by the action of the white Nylon part - the speed change ramp (119) upon the primary arm assembly (119) which has both the idler wheel and its swivel bracket connected to it. The primary arm assembly can move up and down and be swing out and back, so as to temporarily disengage the motor pulley drive to the capstan flywheel.

When the speed change knob is altered, the stepped ramp side of 119 moves the primary arm assembly up or down (as required) so as to align itself with the desired motor pulley speed step and at the same time, briefly "flips" the idler wheel out of engagement with the motor pulley and capstan flywheel. When the speed change knob gets to the selected speed position, the idler wheel is once again engaged.

In the left hand photo in post 18, the stepped ramp part of white Nylon part 119 is on the left and it changes the height of the idler wheel, as required (the metal rod connects item 119 to the record/playback speed frequency correction rotary wafer switch on the PCB) and temporarily "flips" the idler wheel so as to disengage the motor pulley drive whilst the height of the idler wheel is changed. The corrugated part on the right is to ensure there are three definite steps ("detents") when the speed change knob is adjusted.

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