Compiling a list of SC/MP Project Boards

[Phil__G]

Hi Craig
Yeah in Kris's absence (and I may be wrong) I think he'd rather the MGH8060 was considered an intermediate design, a Ronald Decker, with the MGH8060GAL replacing it completely. Most if not all MGH8060s were cluged into GALs anyway

Please note that Ronald Decker's published design has an address decoding error, rom & ram enables transposed, Ron has been advised but hasnt updated his site in years.

There's also the Elektor magazine SC/MP, ETI Twonky, the Australian Miniscamp, all have been mentioned at some stage here on the forum.

If you're creating an 'SC/MP Tribute' site maybe a mention for San Bergmans? Almost all the new SC/MP software (Covid onwards) uses San's SBASM.

We've often talked on here of a more permanent home for our combined SC/MP stuff, probably github - how solid is 'bitsofthegoldenage' long term? (whois has nothing much)

Cheers
Phil

[SiriusHardware]

Chris Oddy's close replica of the final revision of the original MK14, the issue V, as distinct from his MK14E :-

https://www.theoddys.com/acorn/replica_boards/replica_mk14/replica_mk14.html

While closer to the original, the acknowledged problem with building up one or other of these near-faithful replicas now is the critical shortage of the 2111 or AM9111 SRAMs needed, also the difficulty of obtaining and programming the 2 x NOS 4-bit wide PROMs.

That was why the MK14E, designed a little later, used 2716/2732 EPROM and 6116 RAMs. It also improves on the original in a lot of other ways - the single step and cassette interface circuitry, originally added offboard, are included on the MK14E.

[ortek_service]

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

>> the acknowledged problem with building up one or other of these near-faithful replicas now is the critical shortage of the 2111 or AM9111 SRAMs needed, also the difficulty of obtaining and programming the 2 x NOS 4-bit wide PROMs.
>>
>>

Apparently Poland's TVsat company who were the main distributor for the Tesla read-compatible equivalents to the original NS (that stocks have long since been exhausted) PROM's have now run out of these ones as well
- And they won't be getting any more (probably as even the Tesla ones haven't been made for decades, and there was just quite a bit of NOS ones still around).

So if needing these in future, then will have to make a conversion module to something a bit more-obtainable like an (E)EPROM that are usually fast-enough in many cases where these fast Bi-PROM's were originally used for convenience. However these are generally in lager packages, however there were some OTP-EPROM's in smaller SMD packages.
Otherwise, it's a case of trying to emulate one with an FPGA / CPLD, or a fast uC.

The same for the (often-used with the SC/MP) 8154 PIA+RAM IC, with stocks of this now all seemingly exhausted. Although this was at least optional on the MK14, and is also generally register-compatible with some other PIA's (although without the extra 128Byte RAM). And larger DIL40 package, makes building a conversion module a bit easier (Maybe with an SMD SRAM IC underneath another DIL40 PIA, with a multi-layer PCB to sort-out all the connections.

The INS8060 SC/MP-II itself does still seem to be generally available (as used 'pulls'?) from a few places (Although no major stockists), however price has increased a bit in recent years - even ones from China, where there maybe concerns about whether these are genuine / still work OK but luckily most seem to be OK.

[SiriusHardware]

There is a solution for the hard to get PROMs and RAM available from Martin, the same guy who makes the most authentic looking replica MK14 PCBs: It's a daughterboard which plugs into the MK14's CPU socket and contains a socket for the CPU to go into, an EPROM or EEPROM, Some RAM and a GAL address decoder. (You may have to ask your browser to translate).

https://www.8bity.cz/2015/jednoduchy-ram-a-eprom-adapter-pro-soc-mk14/

He's also done close replicas of other MK14 accessories / hardware, notably the VDU card which, like his MK14 mainboard, is a very close replica of the original Science of Cambridge VDU card.

https://www.8bity.cz/2018/mk14-vdu-video-display-unit-replica/

Nowadays that has its own issues with parts availability - the 74L86 (which has a different pinout to 'ordinary' 74x86), the character generator chip used in the original design is nearly unobtainable, one of our members here (Realtime) made a plug in substitute for the original character generator.

Chris Oddy also made a close replica of the original VDU card which, while the 74L86 is designed out, also needs the original character generator (or Realtime's plug in substitute).

https://theoddys.com/acorn/replica_boards/replica_mk14_vdu/replica_mk14_vdu.html

Chris Oddy also has perhaps a better functional, rather than faithful, version for the modern age, he designed out the 74L86 and the hard-to-get character generator, fixed at least one visual deficiency in the output from the original hardware and replaced the UHF modulator with a composite video output. If I didn't already have several VDU-like options and I was looking for a hardware replica, this is probably the one I would go for now.

https://theoddys.com/acorn/replica_boards/mk14e/mk14e_vdu/mk14e_vdu.html

[Phil__G]

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

There is a solution for the hard to get PROMs and RAM available from Martin, the same guy who makes the most authentic looking replica MK14 PCBs: It's a daughterboard which plugs into the MK14's CPU socket and contains a socket for the CPU to go into, an EPROM or EEPROM, Some RAM and a GAL address decoder.

This pic shows Martins memory board:

https://www.mccrash-racing.co.uk/philg/scmp/scmp.htm?l=1#ramrom

Kris does one too, his version can also be run standalone. Both work perfectly.

[ortek_service]

Originally Posted by Phil__G

This pic shows Martins memory board:

https://www.mccrash-racing.co.uk/philg/scmp/scmp.htm?l=1#ramrom

Kris does one too, his version can also be run standalone. Both work perfectly.

coolsnaz2 (Ian M) has also done some of these. It originally used the (rather-expensive new, although could probably DIY one / resurrect an old one) Dallas-Maxim NVRAM module, that retained 'ROM' contents in this making it easier to change versions as required.
However, I believe he now has an FRAM version working
- The Ramtron etc FRAM's are not always a drop-in replacement, as require a small pulse on nCS between each address IIRC, and hadn't worked when I'd initially tried one. Although they had worked OK on the PICL14.

[SiriusHardware]

It's also worth pointing out that the MK14 VDU cards will (in theory) work with any real SC/MP system because they are quite 'dumb', you point them at a 512 byte block of continuous RAM on your system (using the onboard address bank select switches) and they convert whatever they find there to visible output. They don't have any onboard RAM of their own so you need to be able to spare 512 bytes of RAM on your host SC/MP system for the VDU card to use as 'screen RAM'.

They use the SC/MP's ability to remove itself from the buses when requested so that whatever is making the request... in this case the VDU - can have access to the address, data and control lines on the SC/MP system.

[Michael Haardt]

Originally Posted by HelloWorld

I added the photo on my SC/MP project page, but your site is still taking me to a broken link for "The >NDR Klein computer is a..."
https://hschuetz.selfhost.eu/ndr/startseite.html
also, If you would like me to put it in, can you give me a little description for your project?

Perhaps your browser has the page cached? I cannot find that URL any more.

The NDR Klein Computer is a modular micro computer system. The SC/MP card is a processor card for it, that, together with the new HEXIO card, is compatible to the Elektor system for running its code like Elbug.

Michael

[Phil__G]

I imagine Craig's finding this all a bit overwhelming!

[SiriusHardware]

I think there is certainly more here about the MK14 specifically than Craig expected.

Why does it feature so much? the MK14 was really the first affordable programmable 'thing' offered in the UK, crucially backed by a series of high quality one or two full page adverts placed in the electronics hobby press.

The MK14 on its own really explains the continuing level of interest that there is in the SC/MP in the UK because for many people here this chip was the first thing we ever programmed and so we have fond memories of it for that reason. A lot of people who had MK14s and then disposed of them when they no longer seemed useful or relevant now wish they hadn't done that, hence the interest in real surviving machines (now very expensive where they can still be found) and replicas.

The company who made the MK14 went on to become 'Sinclair' who a couple of years later made the ZX80, then the ZX81 and then the ZX Spectrum which were also huge successes in the UK, again due to their being affordable rather than spectacularly good - so there is a love here (at least in some quarters) for all things Sinclair because so many people got started on one or another of their machines, and the MK14 is regarded as Sinclair's first 'computer', even if it was little more than what we would now regard as a microprocessor 'trainer', a close equivalent to National Semiconductor's 'Introkit' (with the added keypad and calculator display, upon which it was heavily based).

[Timbucus]

Originally Posted by HelloWorld

Did I miss seeing the link to build files for the SCRUMPI ?

The link to the book at the bottom of that website on my Google drive contains the closest thing to a Manual and build instructions - unfortunately the Gerber files were never made public and I have been unable to get hold of Phil to ask for them - I have just fired off another e-mail.

[Timbucus]

Originally Posted by Mark1960

I think I have one that you sent me with an Ortonview pcb.

I will of course do that as it is still of value in bringing up a vintage real MK14 due to its total isolation.

[HelloWorld]

Originally Posted by Phil__G

Hi Craig
Yeah in Kris's absence (and I may be wrong) I think he'd rather the MGH8060 was considered an intermediate design, a Ronald Decker, with the MGH8060GAL replacing it completely. Most if not all MGH8060s were cluged into GALs anyway

Please note that Ronald Decker's published design has an address decoding error, rom & ram enables transposed, Ron has been advised but hasnt updated his site in years.

There's also the Elektor magazine SC/MP, ETI Twonky, the Australian Miniscamp, all have been mentioned at some stage here on the forum.

If you're creating an 'SC/MP Tribute' site maybe a mention for San Bergmans? Almost all the new SC/MP software (Covid onwards) uses San's SBASM.

We've often talked on here of a more permanent home for our combined SC/MP stuff, probably github - how solid is 'bitsofthegoldenage' long term? (whois has nothing much)

Cheers
Phil

Thanks Phil,
i corrected the link on Kris's board to the -GAL version.
I am aware of the Australian miniscamp, but is anyone offering boards for it?
I had presumed that the new SC/MP boards were still using NIBL... that is not the case?

As far as bits of the golden age, it will likely die when I do.... or at least one host provider invoice afterwards. the domain i have for a decade or two but the site not so much. Except for this one page of SC/MP projects developed by others, all the other content are just my projects and documentation. Like many, I know that i need to come up with a continuation strategy, but i just haven't gotten around to doing that.

thanks for the additional data

[HelloWorld]

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

Chris Oddy's close replica of the final revision of the original MK14, the issue V, as distinct from his MK14E :-

https://www.theoddys.com/acorn/replica_boards/replica_mk14/replica_mk14.html

While closer to the original, the acknowledged problem with building up one or other of these near-faithful replicas now is the critical shortage of the 2111 or AM9111 SRAMs needed, also the difficulty of obtaining and programming the 2 x NOS 4-bit wide PROMs.

That was why the MK14E, designed a little later, used 2716/2732 EPROM and 6116 RAMs. It also improves on the original in a lot of other ways - the single step and cassette interface circuitry, originally added offboard, are included on the MK14E.

Thanks. I have changed the verbiage a bit on the MK14E to indicate that it is a modernized version and if someone wants something closer to the original, Chris also has the MK14 replica.

[HelloWorld]

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

There is a solution for the hard to get PROMs and RAM available from Martin, the same guy who makes the most authentic looking replica MK14 PCBs: It's a daughterboard which plugs into the MK14's CPU socket and contains a socket for the CPU to go into, an EPROM or EEPROM, Some RAM and a GAL address decoder. (You may have to ask your browser to translate).

https://www.8bity.cz/2015/jednoduchy-ram-a-eprom-adapter-pro-soc-mk14/

He's also done close replicas of other MK14 accessories / hardware, notably the VDU card which, like his MK14 mainboard, is a very close replica of the original Science of Cambridge VDU card.

https://www.8bity.cz/2018/mk14-vdu-video-display-unit-replica/

Nowadays that has its own issues with parts availability - the 74L86 (which has a different pinout to 'ordinary' 74x86), the character generator chip used in the original design is nearly unobtainable, one of our members here (Realtime) made a plug in substitute for the original character generator.

Chris Oddy also made a close replica of the original VDU card which, while the 74L86 is designed out, also needs the original character generator (or Realtime's plug in substitute).

https://theoddys.com/acorn/replica_boards/replica_mk14_vdu/replica_mk14_vdu.html

Chris Oddy also has perhaps a better functional, rather than faithful, version for the modern age, he designed out the 74L86 and the hard-to-get character generator, fixed at least one visual deficiency in the output from the original hardware and replaced the UHF modulator with a composite video output. If I didn't already have several VDU-like options and I was looking for a hardware replica, this is probably the one I would go for now.

https://theoddys.com/acorn/replica_boards/mk14e/mk14e_vdu/mk14e_vdu.html

i have changed Chris's VDU that i had for the MK14E version and just put in a blurb about having a more faithful version. I suspect most people are interested in a buildable version than the replica version, but this will help them find both.

[Phil__G]

Originally Posted by HelloWorld

Thanks Phil,
i corrected the link on Kris's board to the -GAL version.
I am aware of the Australian miniscamp, but is anyone offering boards for it?
I had presumed that the new SC/MP boards were still using NIBL... that is not the case?

As far as bits of the golden age, it will likely die when I do.... or at least one host provider invoice afterwards. the domain i have for a decade or two but the site not so much. Except for this one page of SC/MP projects developed by others, all the other content are just my projects and documentation. Like many, I know that i need to come up with a continuation strategy, but i just haven't gotten around to doing that.

thanks for the additional data

I think the MiniScamp was hard wired iirc. Karen did some emulated Miniscamp projects here on the forum. 'an executive toy' she called it
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=168878

Yes most new boards, at least the ones with any memory, offer NIBL. Did I confuse things with SBASM? thats a cross-assembler for the PC, most modern implementations of NIBL have been assembled with SBASM for faster serial and to fix the 'bit 7 bug' etc. Theres also the NIBL library functions thing too - also written with SBASM - adding some handy functions to what is really a tiny-basic. The MGH8060GAL also has Erich Kuester's floating point basic.

There is very little software actually written in NIBL basic itself.
Theres a Calendar printer, a prime number gen, SC/MP delay calculator, a disassembler, fruit machine, my basys monitor, bagles... not much at all and nothing serious. A version of Star Trek would be good but no-one has had the patience to break it down into 4k sections!
Here on the forum we're mostly assembly programmers - using either SBASM or Karens favourite, AS - so very few NIBL listings have appeared, if any.

Theres a lot to absorb, you've opened a 50-year-old Pandoras box Craig but dont fret it will all fall into place. Well, I'm hoping thats what happens to me anyway

[SiriusHardware]

Like many, I know that i need to come up with a continuation strategy, but i just haven't gotten around to doing that.

We (here) have talked about this a few times before, Craig. The solution is to print out EVERYTHING on paper in Hex, code, gerber files, everything, and keep it all in a big paper bag in a cool, dry place.

Your friend Gordon's basement seems ideal...

[HelloWorld]

Originally Posted by Phil__G

I imagine Craig's finding this all a bit overwhelming!

Indeed. I thought there would only be a few SC/MP projects. I just don't think it was all that popular here in the States.

[HelloWorld]

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

I think there is certainly more here about the MK14 specifically than Craig expected.

Why does it feature so much? the MK14 was really the first affordable programmable 'thing' offered in the UK, crucially backed by a series of high quality one or two full page adverts placed in the electronics hobby press.

The MK14 on its own really explains the continuing level of interest that there is in the SC/MP in the UK because for many people here this chip was the first thing we ever programmed and so we have fond memories of it for that reason. A lot of people who had MK14s and then disposed of them when they no longer seemed useful or relevant now wish they hadn't done that, hence the interest in real surviving machines (now very expensive where they can still be found) and replicas.

The company who made the MK14 went on to become 'Sinclair' who a couple of years later made the ZX80, then the ZX81 and then the ZX Spectrum which were also huge successes in the UK, again due to their being affordable rather than spectacularly good - so there is a love here (at least in some quarters) for all things Sinclair because so many people got started on one or another of their machines, and the MK14 is regarded as Sinclair's first 'computer', even if it was little more than what we would now regard as a microprocessor 'trainer', a close equivalent to National Semiconductor's 'Introkit' (with the added keypad and calculator display, upon which it was heavily based).

My first programmable calculator was called a sinclair programmable... maybe a sinclair scientific programmable. I mail ordered it from some a little advertisement in the back of a popular electronics or some other magazine. For the price, it sounded too good to be true from the advertisement and people told me it was going to be junk (if it showed up at all), but I really liked that little calculator and since it was the first programmable calculator most of my friends had ever seen, it made me the coolest dude around.

[HelloWorld]

Originally Posted by SiriusHardware

We (here) have talked about this a few times before, Craig. The solution is to print out EVERYTHING on paper in Hex, code, gerber files, everything, and keep it all in a big paper bag in a cool, dry place.

Your friend Gordon's basement seems ideal...

Yes, Gordon is an excellent archiver. He is currently rehoming lots of hardware and documentation so save his children from having to do it later. My kids will not be so lucky, but i am making at least an effort to identify and inventory everything so they at least know what to call it when they are trying to get rid of it.

The sad thing is, that like Slothie, someday I will just stop posting new videos and stop replying to emails and unless someone personally knows me, people will just be left guessing, or their order for bare project boards on my tindie site will go unfilled until it gets refunded.

On the bright side, my widow will look awfully attractive to other geeks when they catch wind of my altair, SOL, 4004 hardware, etc.