Advice for 78rpm needles for McMichael 365

[delaitt]

Hello

I'm restoring a McMichael 365 and need to get some needles to play the 78 rpm.

Do i need to pay particular attention on the type or where to get these needles?

I found the following site. Would you recommend what and where to get some needles from? Do they also need to be changed often?

https://shop.mantra-audio.co.uk/acat...M-Needles.html

Thanks

Thierry

[rontech]

The link indicates steel needles. Whilst these will play 78's it may be worth trying to find a source of what ( back in the day ) were called fibre needles. If your 78's are in good condition they will minimise record wear with the older relatively heavy pickup heads.

Fibre needles also act as a sort of mechanical low pass filter and reduce the percieved level of surface noise. When I was very young the family radiogram used these needles and we had a gadget which would re sharpen the fibre needles.

[bluepilot]

The link indicates steel needles. Whilst these will play 78's it may be worth trying to find a source of what ( back in the day ) were called fibre needles.

Yes, fibre needles will be easier on the records if you intend to play them a lot. Otherwise steel needles come in various "tones":
Steel needles
If I'm allowed to post an Ebay link, this explains it even better:
Better explanation

You need to change the needle after every record side. That's why they come in packets of 100.

[rontech]

I just searched google for " fibre needles 78's uk "

A whole raft of interesting looking links came up.

[Alvin]

A friend has one of those sharpeners identical to the one shown in this thread https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=91810 which also discusses the use of bamboo and thorns.

[rontech]

That sharpener, Alvin, is identical to the one we had. The "IM" refers to a London firm called IMHOF'S who were a major retailer of records and associated equipment. The fibre needles were also available.
With reference to number of fibre playings, they were used in our Garrard RC4 autochanger ( max load 8; 10" or 12" 78's )

I recall a freshly sharpened fibre would last for 8 sides and then best re-sharpen before turning the stack over for the flip sides.

The pickup head by the way was a Garrard "crystal" type which would was lighter than the magnetic types and probably had higher compliance, so the wear would be reduced.

[Hartley118]

Most pre-war and many 1940s 78 pickups were designed for steel needles. Soft tone needles give lower record wear than the louder type because they have greater compliance so that the record groove doesn't have to do as much work. You'll probably find that you can get more than one side's decent play from a needle, depending on its hardness. The crucial precaution is never to remove a needle from the pickup once it's been on a record and then to re-use it. That's because as the record is played, the needle begins to wear flats as it fits into the groove. If it's then removed and reinserted, it's impossible to retain the same orientation and those flats become cutting edges which then begin to destroy the record.

Incidentally, I guess you've checked that the internal armature suspension rubbers in the pickup still have their compliance? Otherwise its performance will be disappointing.

Martin

[PaulR]

I also am lucky enough to have a McMichael 365. I restored it electrically a few years ago and refinished the lid which came up beautifully. The main case is still waiting to be done though!

You can use any steel needle in it. You can probably get them more cheaply off ebay. I also use Columbia Duragold ones. These haven't been made for years but you see them occasionally on ebay. They last for a few sides of 78s.

I have tried fibre needles in a similar heavy electric pickup and found that they barely last for one side of a 78 before needing re sharpening. I may have had poor needles and others may work better of course.

With any player like that in the McMichael you have to accept that it will damage the records to an extent, although probably not as badly as a wind up gramophone would. It is a lovely radiogram, and not too many survive.

I don't know how experienced you are with these old pickups, but you will need to replace the pivot and suspension rubbers in the head.

Edit - I have just seen Martin's similar advice posted a couple of minutes previously. Oddly HMV rubbers seem to survive quite well but Garrard ones such as those on the McMichael go solid

[D.Finney]

Meadows & Passmore, clockmaker's supplies in Hove have a stock of needles, gramophone parts etc. http://www.m-p.co.uk/muk/parts/chap1...1027000315.htm

[Refugee]

You can also grow your own fibre needles.
Cactus thorns were used in hot countries however here in the UK firethorn was used.
I have a firethorn bush as a barrier to stop cats getting into the veg plot and can vouch for them being sharp right off the vine. You get white flowers in May too.

[PaulR]

I have a firethorn hedge. Do you just use them straight off the bush?

[Refugee]

I think you need to season them for a while.
The sap will stick to the record if not.
Cactus thorns are ready seasoned off the plant.

[Alvin]

The upcoming radio Auction in diss - posted today in the Where To Get Sets And Parts section - has two needle sharpeners https://www.twgaze.co.uk/auctions/ca...tion/lot-4053/

[Trifocaltrev]

I have purchased steel needles for many years from here, there are four tones available at a very reasonable cost and they give excellent results on my McMichael 365. http://www.78records.co.uk/needles.htm
Regards
Trevor.

[Heatercathodeshort]

I have been playing 78's with steel needles for more than 60 years! Almost all 78's were played this way and were designed to be played with steel.
Being shellac as apposed to vinyl they are very robust but brittle.

Almost all 78's around today have been played with steel needles and of the thousands I have in my collection, some going back over 100 years, only a tiny proportion have been damaged by playing, and even then I would say repeatedly played with worn needles or faulty pick ups.

As Paul mentioned, the overhaul of the damping rubbers is of the utmost importance. If these have become hardened they will prevent free movement of the needle in it's armature resulting in extreme record wear and very poor sound quality.

It is a simple but delicate job to replace these. The high impedance pick up coil is very easily damaged and frustrating to rewind due to it's hair thickness wire and many thousands of turns.

Fibre needles were a craze during the late 30's/40's. The best were just about acceptable but most lacked treble response resulting in a rather flat sound. They also required frequent sharpening and filled the record grooves with cack thus requiring regular cleaning. I repeat. Some were better than others. The IMI 'top hat' box type were one of the best.

I usually play mine with a Garrard head from around 1945. I have played many favorite recordings dozens of times with no noticeable reduction in quality both audibly and visually. I usually change a good quality soft tone needle after 3/4 sides.

Working correctly you will be amazed how good your recordings will sound.
If you would like a few steel needles to experiment with I can forward some soft/medium/loud tone FOC as I have more than I will ever use. Drop me a PM with your details. I think the records will outlive all of us! Regards, John.

[delaitt]

Thanks everyone for your responses. These are helpful and informative.

@Heatercathodeshort, you have a PM

Heatercathodeshort/PaulR & Hartley118 mentioned about the damping rubber. I'm not exactly sure where that one is located.

I've included a picture of the pickup where the coil can be seen. Is the rubber underneath the coil and does the coil need to be removed to access the rubber ?

Many thanks

Thierry

[PaulR]

The bit of red you can see protruding through the slot between the two screws is the top suspension rubber. It should be quite soft and allow the needle to move sideways. It will probably have gone hard.

The needle holder is pivoted "fore and aft" with rubber sleeving on the pivots. The front pivot is where the holder screw protrudes. These rubbers will also have gone hard.

To take it apart, remove the two screws visible at the top. This will allow you to remove the slotted bit of metal that holds the top suspension runner in place. Be very careful of the leads to the coil, they are very thin and easily broken.

I did post some photos of one in pieces but I cannot find the thread now. If you would like some silicone rubber sleeving and sheet to try in it send me a PM.

[PaulR]

I have found the thread with the photos here https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...=121284&page=2

[delaitt]

Thanks Paul. I've removed the 2 screws and yes the rubber has gone solid !

You have a PM

Thanks

T.

[Hartley118]

When you reassemble the pickup with its new rubber, be sure to centre the armature between the magnet poles. There's obviously a strong magnetic attraction that will tend to cause it to stick to one pole or the other. That ensures failure. It needs to be suspended centrally.

Incidentally, I've found that a soft rubber band can make an effective top suspension. So long as it's in the dark (which it normally is) then it'll last a good few years.

Martin