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Old 25th May 2018, 7:18 pm   #21
avocollector
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Over here in NZ they have legislation that requires the plugs be cut off second hand mains equipment being sold if it does not have a safety test certificate (registered electrician checks insulation etc with megger then certifies OK) . Which is quite sensible in general but can be a right pain for us valve radio enthusiasts when the equipment all turns up with the mains leads neatly clipped off.
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Old 25th May 2018, 7:20 pm   #22
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubberfingers View Post
... Furthermore, the old flex and plug are still the customers property, as are other parts that are changed, and the customer is quite entitled to ask for them back.
And to ask you for financial compensation if you've irreparably devalued his pristine original piece of kit. I fix vintage hifi, some of which is worth thousands of pounds. I don't even wipe it clean without asking the customer first.

Cheers,

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Old 26th May 2018, 10:46 am   #23
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

LIVERWIRE?'s original post was about "chargeable" repairs & mains flex. But the issues raised(& also raised in other recent posts) are a wake-up message to all of us involved in vintage radio/electronics in the 21st century. We must consider the safety of ourselves, our homes & family, mates we do an odd repair job for, and customers of folk in business. Purists might insist that old cloth covered VIR flex should be retained & just two-core at that. Maybe some specialist auction houses advise vintage radio repairers/restorers that original wiring enhances the value of a thousand quid old radiogram. But those auction houses should & will have public liability insurance. I submit that any person who repairs/restores & then sells vintage radios etc. as a business - should hold business insurance, should have relevant technical qualifications, and should hold PAT certification.
Mike Barker has clearly explained the BVWS's stance on mains leads & plugs at their auctions. eBay seems to have a mass of smallprint regarding disclaimers etc. I guess that local ARS junk sales are just private within the membership & amateur fraternity. I've heard that VMARS are tightening up their auction procedures. As for private sales via this Forum site between members - long may it continue, but it does involve a measure of trust regarding safety.

Regards, David
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Old 26th May 2018, 8:39 pm   #24
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Simpson View Post
... But those auction houses should & will have public liability insurance. I submit that any person who repairs/restores & then sells vintage radios etc. as a business - should hold business insurance,
But those insurance policies will have carefully-worded limitations and exclusions. They won't cover deliberate acts, professional incompetence and all number of other things including flood, pestilence, witchcraft and luddites. Even if they do apply, they offer remedies against only the financial side of civil action. If you face criminal action, you pay the fines, you go to jail not Crimson Perpetual Assurance.

If you put your car in for an MOT, which is required by the laws of the land, there are clauses in the fine print that they will rev the living daylights out of your engine for an emission test and that there is a significant risk that the engine will be destroyed during the test and that you, the owner accept the risk. Maybe something similar for a proper PAT test with 25A ground bonding and full high-pot insulation tests is carried out as part of all repairs - at the owner's risk!

As a sideways thought, I wonder how all the mains cable snippers handle stuff with readily available removable mains cables?

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Old 27th May 2018, 9:15 am   #25
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
Another important distinction here is who the customer is. As far as I can tell, all of the legislation mentioned so far relates to equipment which is being put on the market with a view to selling it to a new owner. In this case if it has simply been repaired to the original specification then it is regarded as second-hand and does not need to meet any new standards. If, on the other hand, it has been modified then it may need to meet those standards. The government's 'chapter and verse' on this are here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/electric...ical-equipment. They point out that the use of 'different types of components' will require the impact of that to be assessed by the modifier. Presumably a plug with insulated pins is a 'different type of component' from one where the pins are uninsulated, for example.
I have followed this thread with interest as I have been looking at ways to add a mains cable to the Selena 215 types of Russian radios. I have come up with a solution which would add a fixed cable to the radio via a modified rear input panel. Having read the above document it may be not possible to offer this as a repair re this excerpt.
‘Modified and refurbished equipment are included within the scope of the regulations. Where equipment is refurbished to its original specification, it will be treated as second-hand equipment. However, if the refurbishment uses different types of components, it will be considered as modified electrical equipment.

Modified equipment will need to be assessed by the person carrying out the modifications to determine whether the modification may have introduced hazards or risks which were not covered by the original design. In this case, it is likely that the equipment would be considered as new equipment rather than second-hand equipment.

This will require the person carrying out the modification to carry out all of those exercises required of an original manufacturer. For example, preparation of technical documentation, drawing up an EC DoC and placing the CE marking on the product.’


I was hoping to be able to offer this as a service and have it PAT tested by an electrician but I am unsure now.

Regards

Graham
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Old 27th May 2018, 9:16 am   #26
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'LIVEWIRE?' View Post
Am I correct that if, when performing a chargeable repair, the item(s) being serviced are fitted with the old-style (Red, Black, & Green) mains cable, and/or the old type 13 Amp Plugs with uninsulated L & N Pins, it is a Legal Requirement to replace these with modern type approved equivalents. Items for own use, I know, can be left with the original mains leads & plugs, provided of course that they are in good, safe working order.
2 years ago I attended a City & Guilds PAT course 2377 'in-service & inspection', I asked this very question, the course coordinators' response went along the lines of:-

'No, it is not a legal requirement to replace non-safety type 3-pin mains plugs PROVIDED the non-safety (non-insulated Live & Neutral pins) style plug is correctly wired, in good condition & correctly fused. A mains cable using the old colour coding system, so long as it is in safe condition, correctly rated for the appliance, correctly earthed (where applicable) and has suitable strain relief, you are not legally required to replace either item.

Provided both the mains lead & plug are in safe working condition, you should inform the owner and the operative that this equipment/instrument uses the old style mains wiring colour code and a non-safety style mains plug.

If however, someone gets a belt or is killed after you have deemed the item is safe, it is your reasonability!'

His personal opinion, you probably should change both the mains lead & plug.

These days you can buy 'vintage looking' mains leads & 'bakelite looking' safety mains plugs which conform to modern standards, the likely hood is, the very device they're connected to, won't!

It's down to you at the time of testing, will the lead & plug still be safe up to the items next inspection?

Mark
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:06 am   #27
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Well that's great. Graham & Mark - many thanks. As I suspected, and have recently encouraged Forum folk to do, we all need to up our game, safety wise !
How many Forum folk have received jibes about old men in anoraks pottering about in their sheds, eh ? I guess that if we are to gain the trust of the public, and potential purchasers in particular, electrical safety must be a priority. Lets face it - many of us are approaching, if not past, three score years and ten. So what are our families &/or executors to do with all those cherished mains sets in our collections ? They'll end up in a skip if we can't assure them before we pop off that they are electrically safe.
Radio museums, I've heard over the years, are chokka block. Some have folded - such as Henlow & Fort Perch Rock. Others have lost their technically skilled voluntary staff due to ill health or sadly passing away. Therefore us old-uns must encourage young blood into our vintage radio fraternity, but the 21st century demands that electrical safety is a priority. Old (we must keep two core cloth covered vir flex, & we shall keep flogging AC/DC radios) stick in the muds should be seriously encouraged to change their ways. I would go as far to say that serious Forum wheeler dealers should follow Mark's example and obtain C & G 2377 Certification.
Several years back I acquired a heap of surplus mains powered test equipment. Most of it was given away. To local vintage chums, some Forum &/or BVWS folk, and some ARS's. Every one was PAT tested with a new pat tester I had bought for my own personal use. As well as other safety examination & testing, etc. Had I been an internet or auction wheeler-dealer I might have made over a grand. The cost of a PAT tester, and indeed a decent modern Megger & a DMM, is relatively small compared to what some folk make in the vintage radio marketplace.

Regards, David
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:10 am   #28
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

You can pay around £30 to get something PAT tested. Or if you’re a sneaky sod like me I get the guys who come round and do the stuff in the office to do it when they pass through for nothing
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Old 27th May 2018, 11:54 am   #29
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Mr Bungle, I like your style!

Mind you, the look on the guy's face when he last came to our lab at work, & sat on my bench was a homer, a DAC90A. He dared not connect his PAT but did give the set a visual inspection, mainly for interest I felt.

Yesterday, my daughter was horrified at the state of the original mains lead on my unrestored/pending restoration Cossor 501AC, which hasn't been used in 45-odd years. I did however, show her its new (but original looking) replacement, complete with modern, 3-pin safety mains plug, which looks just like black bakelite ...

I feel this sort of repair is sympathetic to the sets origins, & everyone's safety.

Speaking of which, how would we stand home insurance wise, if something were to happen to one of our sets, following 'us' repairing such at item & then bringing it into our own home.

Hmmm, there's a thought.

Mark
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Old 27th May 2018, 2:58 pm   #30
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Your home insurance would probably be voided. Check your policy. Mine has a clause in it which covers anything modified, storage of high energy batteries and anything involving low voltage DC installations. I have additional insurance as I run a business from home as well that covers that however.
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Old 27th May 2018, 3:27 pm   #31
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Surely, somewhere down the line there must be a requirement to prove reckless endangerment or malice. There must have been countless home repaired/modified/botched items responsible for accidents in every conceivable field, not just ours. We've all seen examples of gas poker soldering and Sellotape insulation and the like. Fair game of course, and hopefully not representative of members here, but a well executed restoration/repair, following good practice, that just didn't meet the criteria for newly manufactured goods would be a difficult one to prosecute.
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Old 27th May 2018, 3:49 pm   #32
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC/HL View Post
... but a well executed restoration/repair, following good practice, that just didn't meet the criteria for newly manufactured goods would be a difficult one to prosecute.
Any court case would hinge on whether the goods were 'newly manufactured' or not. I guess this is why the government wrote the guidance note that I linked to above. If modifications have been made which are sufficient to change the item's status from 'second-hand' to 'new' then all the new standards will apply. If the modifications are so minor that the status doesn't change then they won't.

The offence which would be prosecuted, incidentally, would be one of breaching the regulations. I don't think there needs to be recklessness or malice involved for anyone to be guilty of that.

EDIT: It's just occcurred to me that you might be talking about the case of a repair for return to the original owner, not a repair and then a resale. My comments only apply in the repair and resale case.

Cheers,

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Last edited by GrimJosef; 27th May 2018 at 4:08 pm.
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Old 27th May 2018, 3:54 pm   #33
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

I've seen a few such cases reported on the BBC news website. They generally involve small traders or DIYers working on fixed wiring. The big boys don't get prosecuted.

A "good" lawyer will argue that you did wrong either in replacing (modernising) or not replacing (negligence) a mains leads, whatever the case may be.

Imagine if the Grenfell Tower fire had alledgedly started in a vintage radio restored or repaired by a forum member. He wouldn't stand a chance in court.
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Old 27th May 2018, 4:05 pm   #34
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Indeed. Sad but true. Beko I think it was started that one.
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Old 27th May 2018, 4:26 pm   #35
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AC/HL View Post
Surely, somewhere down the line there must be a requirement to prove reckless endangerment or malice. There must have been countless home repaired/modified/botched items responsible for accidents in every conceivable field, not just ours. We've all seen examples of gas poker soldering and Sellotape insulation and the like. Fair game of course, and hopefully not representative of members here, but a well executed restoration/repair, following good practice, that just didn't meet the criteria for newly manufactured goods would be a difficult one to prosecute.
Sorry to risk going OT - and on to a prohibited theme at that, but I believe it's helpful to look at the way that the law treats classic vehicles, whether fully restored or not.

A vehicle is inherently a much more potentially lethal product than a radio, yet classic vehicle owners and restorers are now assumed in law to be a responsible safety-conscious bunch of folk. So much so that such vehicles over 40 years old are no longer subject to the MoT test, which I guess is the automotive equivalent of a PAT test. And there's no problem getting insurance cover because the companies take a reasonable view of the actual risk which, based on their experience, is minimal. Similarly, I see no reason for household insurers to take a pessimistic view of running vintage electronics.

I must confess though that personally I'm cautious about leaving vintage electronics plugged in, unattended for substantial periods of time. Stuff happens. Likewise, leaving vintage kit in inexperienced hands can in my experience be problematic because user expectations may be inappropriate. But then I don't make a living from radio restoration.

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Old 27th May 2018, 4:37 pm   #36
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Just did a quick Google of "Electrical Flex". Loads of suppliers. The first two on the page were "Lamp Spares" & Amazon. Lamp spares were offering 3 core 0.75mm braided flex in antique gold for the retro look, at £2.99/m.
Well worth the dosh to keep the vintage look of our old radios, whilst observing safe wiring practice, I would have thought.
The BVWS have been advertising Electrolytics & other capacitors, and great electrical spray. Perhaps those in BVWS management who also are Forum members(& have read this thread) might consider finding a worthwhile source of suitable & safe vintage looking flex which could allay the concerns raised in this particular thread ? If they make a profit on a 100m coil, then all the better for BVWS funds. I would give the same encouragement to VMARS.

Regards, David
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Old 27th May 2018, 5:07 pm   #37
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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... Well worth the dosh to keep the vintage look ...
This should work fine for folks who are happy with a vintage 'look'. It could be that the OP's customer has put the radio in for repair rather than replacement because it really is vintage though. He may or may not be happy to get something 'lookalike' back.

Cheers,

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Old 27th May 2018, 6:45 pm   #38
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

As I understand it PAT is not a legal requirement.
However electrical equipment must meet the necessary regulations, thus PAT is a method to demonstrate that equipment has been tested and is safe to use.
I have the highest regard for H&S having been involved with writing Risk Assessments and working along side H&S professionals.
I would like to see a simple definitive guide being produced for all vintage restoration.
Cheers
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Old 27th May 2018, 7:03 pm   #39
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

PAT isn't a legal requirement you're right but it's important for H&S compliance and a condition of many business insurance policies. This invariably involves selling things privately where you are a sole trader in concept.
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Old 27th May 2018, 8:54 pm   #40
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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Surely, somewhere down the line there must be a requirement to prove reckless endangerment or malice.
There used to be such a thing in English law as a requirement for men's rea -- guilty mind, i.e. whether the defendant believed themself to be doing something wrong. However, it has been disregarded lately, as it was making it too difficult to establish guilt.
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