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Old 29th Apr 2018, 8:21 pm   #21
Mistermal
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

Excellent thank you Hamish. I guess it will be able to check all the components on a dansette.
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 8:35 pm   #22
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

Whenever this question is posed, many recommendations fail to meet the 'price cap' criteria of a hobbyists' 'budget' meter. For my money, the Toolzone large digit meter has a lot to commend it. I've had one for some years now and it's never skipped a beat. If ever it does, I'll buy another. Auto shut-off, and includes an NPN/PNP transistor tester with an indication of gain, and capacitance ranges. The ranges covered amply meet the needs of hobbyists and are:

DC Volts - five ranges to 1,000 Volts.
AC Volts - five ranges to 750 Volts.
DC Current - four ranges 2mA - 20 Amps.
AC Current - four ranges 2mA - 20 Amps.
Resistance - seven ranges to 200 Meg Ohms.
Capacitance - five ranges to 20 µF.
NPN/PNP transistor tester.
Continuity tester.

Any debate about Multimeters tends to turn into a 'beauty parade', sometimes with links to shroud-waving sneering videos of cheap meters being blown to smithereens because someone has decided to do just that. There will be those who will say 'well I wouldn't trust those leads/prods on 1,000 Volts, or 20 Amps, but how many us are going to do that? If ever I did, I'd connect the meter with no voltage/current applied and keep my hands clear of the leads and the meter. Wouldn't anyone? I'm too old to have nasty shocks and too young to die.

In any event, much of the testing we carry out on vintage radio restoration is continuity or resistance checks, which are done with the set unplugged from the mains. Coils and transformer windings, switch continuity, speaker voice coils, valve heater continuity and so forth.

The Toolzone Large Digit meter can presently be bought for £11.00 post free on Amazon.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Toolzone-Di.../dp/B002NH2SDU

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Old 29th Apr 2018, 8:44 pm   #23
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

Thank you David. What do you think of the aneng mentioned above? I’m new to all this would you say the toolzone mm does the same as the aneng?
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 8:49 pm   #24
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

They are very similar meters. All basic meters measure more or less the same things. The difference between a £5 and £20 meter will really just be the quality of construction, with the higher price buying better switchgear, better probes, better insulation etc.
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 8:51 pm   #25
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Thank you Paul, that clears a lot up.
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 8:58 pm   #26
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

David's Toolzone meter does measure capacitance which is a good feature for an £11 meter, though not essential.
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 10:01 pm   #27
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

The Aneng AN8002 or AN8009 are much better meters than the Toolzone, and well worth the small extra in my humble opinion.

The differences might not make a huge difference to some, but one difference that is worth considering is manual vs auto ranging. Personally, I am no longer used to manual ranging meters, and find them a pain when I meet one. Some people feel the opposite. There are occasions when it is useful to put an auto-ranging meter into manual range, but those are few and far between. The AN8008 and AN8009 have a manual range button for this purpose; the AN8002 does not.

There is a drawback with the AN8002/8/9 meters - the sharing of the positive input for milliamps (along with the other usual functions). The Toolzone has a separate socket for milliamps. This helps to avoid certain types of "user error". The BSIDE ZT301 is slightly larger than the AN8002/8/9 meters, so has room for a dedicated milliamp socket. This meter is currently available for £16, and this is the budget meter that I would recommend today.

Compared to the Toolzone, these meters will do everything it does and more, and all have better resolution (higher "counts"). As well as capacitance, continuity and diode test, they measure frequency and duty cycle. What they don't do, however, is test transistors. Transistor testers on a multimeter is a sure sign of a manufacturer who was more interested in "ticks on a marketing brochure" rather than safety. There are dedicated transistor testers available for less than a tenner - and those testers will do much more, including testing capacitors.

If I was charged with fixing a Dansette record player, then just about any sort of multimeter can be used. What matters most of all is how it's used. A multimeter will help you make observations; it's up to you to interpret them. Luckily, you'll get lots of help on this forum.

And, the safest multimeter in the world cannot prevent an inexperienced person from serious harm. If in doubt, please ask for help
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 10:14 pm   #28
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

The DT830 meters have a basic hfe transistor test and a diode forward voltage test. It's worth spending £4 on one for these functions alone if your primary meter doesn't have them, and as I said earlier it's handy to have a second meter, even a cheap'n'nasty one.
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Old 29th Apr 2018, 10:24 pm   #29
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

Thank you Hennessy and thank you Paul. You guys are great. Your knowledge is immeasurable. For a starter like me it’s good to get all angles of opinions and knowledge. I’ll filter through it all before I make my choice. Maybe get both as £4 is not much for a secondary back up multimeter. The journey continues. Ps. Thank you all guys for your info and advice. Much appreciated.
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 12:15 am   #30
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

Decades ago, Practical Wireless ran a series of articles entitled something like "Are The Voltages Correct?" which was an extremely practical guide to fault-finding with a multimeter. It was re-issued as a reprint some time later. If you are able to locate a copy, it will give you a lot of practical tips, as well as questions and answers and worked examples. It covers both valve and transistor circuits. The point to recognise is that a multimeter will draw some current from the circuit under test when measuring voltages, and introduce some resistance into the circuit when measuring currents. In many cases this won't affect anything, but in a significant number of cases it will, and the potential for confusion is massive. The trick is to be able to recognise the effects and make allowance for them. In general, the better the meter, the higher the OPV (ohms-per-volt) and the less effect the meter will have.

My experience with multimeters goes back to boyhood when all I could afford was a cheap Japanese 1,000 OPV job. The main limiting factor was the single ohms range. In radio (or Dansettes) you will need to measure resistance from just a few ohms up to several Megohms, and a single resistance range simply won't be adequate. I now have numerous vintage and modern multimeters, but I still find myself using the ohms ranges more often than anything else. The ubiquitous Avo Model 8 takes some beating.

It could be argued that if you have to resort to fault-finding using a multimeter to measure voltages inside a live piece of equipment, you haven't spent enough time fault-finding with the ohmmeter before powering up. This is a somewhat simplistic argument, but it does illustrate that you can discover an awful lot by doing 'cold checks' which are also inherently a good deal safer than sticking meter probes into something that is working, especially if you don't have much experience. It's very easy to slip and touch the wrong point, or worse still, short out two points and cause damage, a loud bang and a nasty surprise! A typical example would be if you are trying to measure the voltage on a valve's cathode. This will be fairly low and you will have set the meter to (say) the 10 volt range. If you accidentally touch the anode or screen grid pins (which may be adjacent) your meter will be subjected to a big overload.
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 12:41 am   #31
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

Quote:
Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
There is a drawback with the AN8002/8/9 meters - the sharing of the positive input for milliamps (along with the other usual functions). The Toolzone has a separate socket for milliamps. This helps to avoid certain types of "user error". The BSIDE ZT301 is slightly larger than the AN8002/8/9 meters, so has room for a dedicated milliamp socket. This meter is currently available for £16, and this is the budget meter that I would recommend today.
I have got an AN8008 in front of me and it has got a separate ma range socket.
I find it a good compromise between a cheap one and a premium model.
I bought two and a digital microscope while I was at it on the big Chinese gadget website. They were well under £20 each but took a week for shipping.
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 8:58 am   #32
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

Thank you refugee and thank you Phil. I’ll keep a look out for the book. A lot of valuable info. I guess I’ve got a lot to learn and some. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 9:33 am   #33
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

I have a M3800 DMM bought at the NVCF a few years ago, which I use almost every day - this has similar ranges to the Toolzone one, but instead of capacitance, features a socket for measuring hFE of Bipolar transistors. I don't use that much, but it's handy when needed. Also bought at the NVCF a Russian u4324 analogue multimeter, which I use now and again for voltage & current measurements, but because of the non-availability of the battery used, the resistance ranges cannot be used. There is a mod. to allow a different battery to be fitted, but I've never got around to fitting that! Whether either of these meters is still available I know not.
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 10:00 am   #34
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Excellent thanks livewire
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 10:33 am   #35
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

Quote:
Originally Posted by Refugee View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
There is a drawback with the AN8002/8/9 meters - the sharing of the positive input for milliamps (along with the other usual functions). The Toolzone has a separate socket for milliamps. This helps to avoid certain types of "user error". The BSIDE ZT301 is slightly larger than the AN8002/8/9 meters, so has room for a dedicated milliamp socket. This meter is currently available for £16, and this is the budget meter that I would recommend today.
I have got an AN8008 in front of me and it has got a separate ma range socket.
I find it a good compromise between a cheap one and a premium model.
I bought two and a digital microscope while I was at it on the big Chinese gadget website. They were well under £20 each but took a week for shipping.
I'm a died in the wool Fluke user. And if I need to make any high energy measurments, with the proper Fluke leads they are unsurpassed.

But about 6 months ago I bought an AN8008, and it is a fine thing indeed, and a real bargain. Four digit, true rms. and a large display.

It is purportedly CE marked (it isn't - the CE mark does not conform), it says on the leads that they are double insulated (they aren't). But they do have shrouded tips, where the shrouds can be removed to reveal long tips. The meter is also really accurate (I have quite a lot of standards equipment).

So for general use, the AN8008 comes out to play.

Craig
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 11:08 am   #36
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

Craig, your comments, which could apply to other things beside test meters, suggest that, unless someone knows exactly what a legitimate CE mark looks like, and carefully checks such marks(not always practical) before buying, then it's pretty much a case of 'caveat emptor'
To return to the U 4324 analogue meter, the mod. consists of fitting a 2k resistor in series with the resistance zeroing pot., then a 6v battery such as the A21, MN11, or 6016 can be fitted. The meter is sturdily built, and has a large clear scale, with easy to operate controls, so, IMHO, a good choice when an analogue meter is needed.
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 12:22 pm   #37
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

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Craig, your comments, which could apply to other things beside test meters, suggest that, unless someone knows exactly what a legitimate CE mark looks like, and carefully checks such marks(not always practical) before buying, then it's pretty much a case of 'caveat emptor'
I do apologise to Aneng- I've looked in close detail at the CE mark on the AN8008 and it does actually conform partly to the standard - it conforms to the logo, but not the physical size. The height of the letters should be at least 5mm, whereas on the AN8008 is it closer to 3.3mm.

Anyway, leaving that aside, I just found this article about hotrodding the meter for faster settling time and improved accuracy.

https://www.jackenhack.com/aneng-an8...ster-readings/
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 12:37 pm   #38
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
There is a drawback with the AN8002/8/9 meters - the sharing of the positive input for milliamps (along with the other usual functions). The Toolzone has a separate socket for milliamps. This helps to avoid certain types of "user error". The BSIDE ZT301 is slightly larger than the AN8002/8/9 meters, so has room for a dedicated milliamp socket. This meter is currently available for £16, and this is the budget meter that I would recommend today.
I have got an AN8008 in front of me and it has got a separate ma range socket.
On that particular meter, the positive input is shared with microamps. So the important point remains that it is possible to present a near short-circuit between the positive input and the common socket by simply leaving the function switch in the wrong position - something which is impossible to do when you have separate sockets for all current measurements.

That's why I'd recommend the BSIDE ZT301 over the AN8008. For a beginner, the act of having to move the positive probe to a different socket makes it less likely that they will inadvertently put a short across something they are trying to measure. The consistency of the main positive input always being a high impedance input is very useful IMHO.
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 12:59 pm   #39
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Default Re: Help on buying a multimeter

One thing the DT830 range typically has (which could justify it as a back up where 2 measurements are required simultaneously) is a screen with fantastic contrast and chunky digits of a good size. Even the aforementioned you-tubers who blow them up for fun admit this.
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Old 30th Apr 2018, 2:21 pm   #40
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I will have to measure the microamp shunt with an AVO now to see what actually would end up shunted across the circuit if that happens.
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