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Old 17th Oct 2020, 7:36 pm   #21
Trigon.
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

I would think it's very likely a 'permanent split-capacitor motor':-

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I believe the '2 phase' label is to suggest it's a 'symmetrical' type, most suited for reversing applications.

Conect the two windings and the capacitor in a 'triangle' and apply 110v between the junction of the windings and either end of the capacitor. This allows simple reversing with a single pole switch.

Cheers
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Old 17th Oct 2020, 8:12 pm   #22
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigon. View Post
I would think it's very likely a 'permanent split-capacitor motor':-

Attachment 218171
Yes, that's also how I'd suggest wiring it to try it out.

Chris
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Old 17th Oct 2020, 8:56 pm   #23
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

Klaxon still exists and is owned by Texecom. They can be found at:

St. Crispin Way
Haslingden
Lancashire
BB4 4PW
UK

Tel: 01706 234800
Email: sales@klaxonsignals.com

Perhaps they may be able to advise on this??
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Old 17th Oct 2020, 10:04 pm   #24
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trigon. View Post
I would think it's very likely a 'permanent split-capacitor motor':-

Attachment 218171

I believe the '2 phase' label is to suggest it's a 'symmetrical' type, most suited for reversing applications.

Conect the two windings and the capacitor in a 'triangle' and apply 110v between the junction of the windings and either end of the capacitor. This allows simple reversing with a single pole switch.

Cheers

Possibly, but not in view that likely.
Split winding motors usually only have three connections, one end of each winding, with the other ends of the windings connected together internally.
Also such motors are not normally identified as 2 phase.
Capacitor start and capacitor run motors usually have the value of the required capacitor marked on the nameplate.
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Old 18th Oct 2020, 10:08 am   #25
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmjones01 View Post
Since it's "Klaxon" branded and rotates at 100rpm, I wonder if it was intended to operate the shutters on a pulsed 'nee-naw' type siren? If so, it may have been powered from two of the three phases feeding the blower motor, maybe via a transformer or even taps on the blower's windings. For such a light duty, the extra cost of a winding for the third phase probably wasn't justified.
Chris
If you look up Broadmoor sirens, they are Klaxon CS8, the shutters are solenoid driven with spring return.
Having them motor driven would result in the shutters struggling to operate whilst the air is forcing itself against it in the closed position.
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Old 19th Oct 2020, 10:58 pm   #26
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadgage View Post
Possibly, but not in view that likely.
Split winding motors usually only have three connections, one end of each winding, with the other ends of the windings connected together internally.
Also such motors are not normally identified as 2 phase.
Capacitor start and capacitor run motors usually have the value of the required capacitor marked on the nameplate.
I was certainly of the impression that a motor labelled as being "two-phase" was simply that, intended to operate from a two-phase supply. And that the various forms of single-phase induction motors, split-phase, capacitor start, capacitor start and run, etc., were labelled as being "single-phase".

The attached chart, although just a single example, does tend to confirm that impression.


Cheers,
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File Type: pdf Brook Gryphon Connection Diagrams.pdf (385.0 KB, 38 views)
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 9:02 am   #27
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
Yes, that's not a bad simile. Bicycle pedals at 120 apart would be difficult to use.
I can't see why.
It works fine on pedal cars!
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 10:11 am   #28
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

Generally, UK mains supplies differ from US supplies. We supply, LV - wise, 50Hz, 3 ph.( 120 deg. apart) - - 415V, plain old single phase - - 240V, and - - 480V one phase 3 wire(also known as "Split Phase") which is 180 deg. apart. The US usually have 60Hz 110 - 0 - 110V split phase, and our split phase supplies are 240 - 0- 240V. For example - our nearby rural T/F is 11KV : 240 - 0 - 240V PME), and the nearby farm takes the 480V to run their grain dryer, the farmhouse takes one leg of single 240V, and we get 240V off the other leg. Urban T/F's are generally have secondary o/p's of 415V 3ph, loaded street by street over the three 240V single ph. supplies. Local garages, bakeries, big shops etc., would get the full 3 ph.
Nothing there for a 110V "2ph" American motor, I'm afraid.

Regards, David
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 3:20 pm   #29
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

If as I suspect this is expecting a true 2 phase supply with a 90 degree phase angle between phases, then it wont work on a USA type single phase 3 wire, 120/240 volt supply.
Neither will it work on the other common USA supply of 120/208 volts, this being two phases and the neutral from a 3 phase 4 wire system with 120 degrees phase angle.

True two phase is believed extinct in the UK and becoming rate in the USA.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 6:20 pm   #30
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

It was still used in Belgium and Northern France (Lille/Rysel) when I was there on a School Exchange.
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 8:29 pm   #31
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

True 2 phase can be generated from 3 phase by means of a SCOTT connected transformer, mainly used in test houses and some labs where it is a reference for in phase and quadrature supplies
ED
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Old 22nd Oct 2020, 11:39 pm   #32
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

The nomenclature on the motor is doubtful. Usually capacitor start/run motors are called 'single phase' because of the supply they run from. If the capacitor is external, the value is marked on the rating plate.

So does 2-phase mean it needed a 2-phase supply, or was it loose language meaningg a capacitive phase shift was needed?

Klaxon sold motors on the general market, they weren't all driving ratcheted diaphragms or sirens.
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Old 23rd Oct 2020, 8:34 am   #33
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Default Re: Wiring a 110V two-phase motor?

Klaxon do indeed appear to have been much more than noise manufacurers - Google finds quite a few windscreen motors around for old Rolls Royces, some in old teleprinters, and a possibly similar 'Klaxon geared 110 volt AC motor' in a science museum exhibit demonstrating the principle of the cyclotron!

I wonder if MotorBikeLes (post #18) was on the right track when he mentioned process control. Using 2 phase motors for continuous drive may well be a thing of the past, but 2 phase servo motors seem to be alive and and kicking.

In these, one winding is fed with a fixed ac voltage, whilst the other is driven from an amplifier supplying a waveform at 90 which is varied in amplitude/polarity to control torque/direction. The rotor resistance is optimised for linear relationships between voltage, torque and speed.

https://www.eeeguide.com/two-phase-servomotor/

Although the motor plate states '100rpm' perhaps that just indicates the maximum speed possible. It may be more significant that the H.P. section is left blank.

I'm guessing the high rotor resistance and slip mentioned in the link might mean it's not going to be very useful for anything else, but it might be ineresting to try running it with a capacitor anyway.

Cheers
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