Old TVs in Modern TV series

[Andy Green]

HI All,

For many years, TV shown on films or TV shows were either crude cut out and superimpose (which I hate!) genuine TV video shown on the TV's in shot.
Of course, this way is nuch harder to do for several reasons, for example the picture of a monochrome set often looks too 'blue' on film or TV, also if not frame synced properly, one gets strobe or banding effects, and if on film, more complex 24 fps video feeds are needed.

Recently I have noticed that the 'cut out' and 'superimpose' technique seems to have regained favour, since it can be done much more convincingly, - see for example the series 'Gogglebox' on Channel 4.
However, to the initiated, it still looks a bit fake, although it is probably far cheaper and better looking to the general public!

I have been watching the US TV series 'Mad men' about the advertising agency world of the 1960's - they go to great lengths to make everything as authentic as possible.. (worth a look for those intereted in in period details - it's on Netflix etc)
It looks to me like they use a combination of the latest cut and superimpose techniques, but in series 6, it looks to me that they are once again using real video of period TV's - If it is fake, it is very good - they even have ghosting, multipath and 'snow!, as well as reflections from the room and shadows from the tube mask visible on the screen!
I have attached a couple of screen shots from recent episodes - (one is a screen grab, the other is taken with my smart phone)
The one in a TV studio looks real, look at the camera position, the view on the viewfinder and colo(u)r floor monitor
Maybe some of the forum's US members (or anyone else for that matter!) might care to comment on this and the sets and camera themselves?

[paulsherwin]

It's easier to use a real period TV and video modulator in the US, as the analogue standards have never changed, though you still have the problem of using a temperamental valve TV in a production environment, all the more so if it's an early colour set.

UK productions mostly use a period TV cabinet which has been gutted and fitted with a much later solid state chassis and tube. These are lighter and more reliable, electrically safer, accept composite video or RGB signals, and allow the colour temperature to be tweaked so that a mono picture looks 'right'. The tube front is usually too flat though. If you look at the big props hire companies' websites you'll see many TVs of this type listed.

[Andy Green]

The thought had ocurred to me that the floor monitor in the 3rd Picture I attached in my post above might be a gutted period set fitted with a flat screen - I did note the hues do look different, especially the reds, not that that is conclusive one way or another, other than indicating it could be a real NTSC picture!). The CRT in pictures 1 & 2 though does look like a real period one, however.
I suppose trying to keep an old camera and tv set running while the actors (pretending to be actors acting) do their thing is asking a lot!
Steve McVoy may know for sure though

[PaulM]

We've done a great many of these shoots over the years with 'real' sets and generalisations are very difficult.

We have a range of period broadcast monitors (some valve, some transistor) that have coped admirably and I can say that we've never had an on-set failure (at least not that anyone has been aware of - the occasional valve re-seat after transport being a good example). They're great for gallery and studio floor scenes. The oldest in the range were made in 1952.

TVs can also be fine - we always endeavour to supply a back-up set where 'original' workers are concerned unless we're 100% convinced that all will be well. For example, an Hitachi CNP 190 will be absolutely fine. Having said that, we have shipped them out 'on their own' without attending them and without back-up, including a venerable Philips G8. The key is in the preparation - it has to be excellent. Making sure that the production has someone who understands how these things work is also important.

Sometimes, the 'implant' is the best method - 50s sets often lend themselves to that, but anything newer with 'push-through' presentation has to be 'real', although we have made custom sets up with tubes driven by a Barco monitor chassis. Being 'zero order hold', LCD screens are great for avoiding 'bars' and other artefacts, but they don't look quite right and they are, of course, dead flat! A modern(ish) TV or monitor implant is the best thing.

The problem with 'blue' vintage B/W sets can be fixed in post, at the time of shooting by using higher colour temperature lighting or by substituting the CRT for an Illuminant D type, where this is possible.

There's often the situation where the production doesn't yet have the footage that they want to show on a TV or monitor (shooting schedules, copyright clearance etc.) and then it really does have to be a post-prod insert, but giving them an illuminated blank screen does make things better in the final result as there's something 'real' to key on.

BTW, there's no real money in this - we only do it as a service alongside our mainline period broadcast activities.

We've been doing this now for at least 16 years and we've learned a lot! It's not as easy as it may sound. The overall result of using a 'real' set or monitor is always convincing, inserts aren't - you can always tell, even now.

Cheers,

Paul M

www.golden-agetv.co.uk

[paulsherwin]

I thought the studio monitor looked a bit early for the period (where are we now - 1966?) and I'd also expect the studio to be bigger with more cameras and equipment, though I'm far from being an expert on US TV production at that time.

[PaulM]

It's not bad for 1966. The camera (RCA TK42) is fine and the studio set looks quite good too. The floor monitor is a bit old, but the golden rule is that you can always go older, but never newer than your target period. Floor monitors were often old junk - especially in poorer stations and studios - so, OK really. The least convincing bit is the flatness of the floor monitor's 'CRT' - it just doesn't look right. An implanted modern(ish) monitor would have been better.

This will have been shot on US HD, so no problems with the old 24 fps film. An LCD monitor would have been a reasonable choice without 24 fps playback conversion facilities for use on a CRT display - something that is becoming harder to find now that film production is all but gone. 24 fps film is still used, but really only for some types of cinema production.

Cheers,

Paul M

[paulsherwin]

Paul, in your opinion is the RCA camera actually functioning, or is there a little CCD camera stuck on the front somewhere providing the feed for the floor monitor?

[PaulM]

It's an implant. I can't tell how good it is from that screen shot, but it's not entirely convincing because there's no lit indicator lamps on the rear and no lit cue light - it's likely supposed to be 'on air' as its picture is on the floor monitor, so it should be 'on'.

We also usually do 'simulated prac' these days, but we've done a quite a few 'real' set-ups too. It's down to time and money. The later tube cameras are completely sane and we've done lots of pop videos with those (three this year already).

We'll be demoing Marconi MkVIIs fully operational 'under their own steam' at the Newark AEC Rally with 'Southern' this weekend. They were designed in 1966 and a contemporary of the TK42 - but they are very different . . .

Cheers,

P.

[PaulM]

I've just looked at the picture again and you can just about make out what looks like a cream coloured camera to the left of the TK42. This is probably the image source - they've only implanted the viewfinder!

P.

[dseymo1]

I think you're right, Paul; the image of the woman is rather more 'full-face' than would be expected from the RCA's position.

[McMurdo]

They're repeating Darling Buds of May on ITV2/3 at the moment and the kitchen Pye V4 looks as though it's an implant, especially when they unplugged the aerial and it went to crisp snow.

[Andy Green]

Very interesting Paul!
That episode of Mad Men is 1968. Whoever did the video for the off air TV shot did make a supreme effort to add some realism, probably 'above and beyond the call of duty'. Like Paul says, not much money in it, more pride in a job well done I'd say!

[paulsherwin]

MM does have high production values and a lot of effort is put into the period feel. The intention isn't to present a totally historically accurate image but one that feels accurate, something that is often described as hyperreality.

[red16v]

Originally Posted by Andy Green

... I did note the hues do look different, especially the reds, not that that is conclusive one way or another, other than indicating it could be a real NTSC picture!)....

One of the first and very important things you learn when you work as an engineer in a studio environment is never, ever judge the colourimetry of a picture using a floor monitor on the set. Not even a broadcast quality monitor.

The overhead lighting is generally at a considerably lower colour temperature than that required, and is almost always flooding onto the picture monitor (and your eyes) resulting in a distorted impression of what the final picture looks like.

If anyone ever queried the 'colour' of a picture on the studio floor with me, I always took them by the hand and gently led them into one of the galleries.

I do note they are trying to accurately portray the use of a floor monitor by partially blocking the ventilation grilles with a script - "Thanks for that" as the engineers would say, "There's nothing more we like doing than needlessly fixing monitors that have died as result of overheating".

[peter_scott]

What a very interesting thread. I'm not a fan of soap operas but I did get hooked by MM and thoroughly convinced by its hyperreality.

Peter

[Focus Diode]

Tyne Tees Television's excellent "Flashback" series from 1990, (still modern to me), may be unknown outside the region. The format was similar to BBCtv's "The Rock 'N' Roll Years" utilising the TTT archive.

The end of the opening titles showed a Bush TV53(?) displaying the title of the programme off screen on 405-lines. This was provided by our very own Fernseh!

Cheers,
Brian