UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Television and Video

Notices

Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 7th Nov 2019, 7:48 pm   #41
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,233
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

Of course, the giveaway on a monochrome set that a colour transmission was being received was the presence of chroma dots.

This has been exploited to recreate the colour from monochrome recordings of at least one colour transmission where the chrominance wasn't suppressed on the recording. Famously, this was done with an episode of Dad's Army where only mono recordings of the original colour programme existed, though a fair amount of processing was needed.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 7th Nov 2019, 9:17 pm   #42
Hartley118
Octode
 
Hartley118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK.
Posts: 1,427
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

I clearly recall that those early colour broadcasts, even viewed on a monochrome set, had a spectacularly improved picture quality, with much improved gradation of tones. The overall effect was much more like a photograph than the older less defined TV pictures of yore.

Maybe it was due to little more than the benefit of brand new cameras, but I suppose that if you can’t get the luminance range right, you don’t stand much chance of natural colour rendition.

Martin
__________________
BVWS Member
Hartley118 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 9th Nov 2019, 9:51 am   #43
PaulM
Hexode
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lincoln, UK.
Posts: 310
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

The BBC's 'full colour TV service' opened on Dec 2nd 1967 using Marconi MkVII colour cameras at Television Centre. The earlier July Wimbledon date was just a 'PR exercise' for the BBC to try to claim 'first in Europe' as Germany was well ahead of the game with both of their TV services in colour by August 25th 1967. Politics and more politics!

We will be demonstrating two of our 'Southern TV' MkVIIs in operational state at the 'Colour TV Comes to Town' event in Birmingham on 15th November, see: https://www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/colou...ts-75577425113

You can then judge for yourself what the black and white pictures from the colour cameras looked like. It was good, especially with Marconi's 2 line Vertical Aperture Corrector which definitely gives a bit of 'zing' to the otherwise rather 'flat' plumbicon pictures (compared to an IO).

The MkVIIs were designed in 1965/66 in an incredibly short time-frame of 9 months to catch the booming US market. The 4 tube (separate luminance) was really a BBC requirement so it had to be incorporated into the design. Philips resolutely held to the view that 4 tubes were not necessary and as a result cleaned-up with colour camera sales all over the world!

With hindsight, 4 tube was a mistake as such cameras are huge, heavy and above all else very expensive to run. The black and white pictures are good though.

The slightly later EMI 2001, another 4 tube BBC inspired design (finally on sale in 1968), only used the 'highs' out of the luminance tube because of patent problems and were forced into a complex arrangement called 'Delta L' to achieve the same result. The EMI 2001 did not sell outside the UK (except a handful almost given away on demo) - the time for 4 tube cameras had gone by the time it appeared and the design was seriously dated. Marconi's next design - surprisingly (!) called the MkVIII which appeared in 1970 is a 3 tube - the lesson had been learned, and sales were excellent other than to the BBC.

The 60s was an interesting period in TV history but as ever, you need to keep an eye on the background politics - it's a very significant factor in status symbols such as colour TV and all developed countries were keen to be seen as 'first' and/or 'best'. The UK was not alone . . .

Paul M
PaulM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 1:09 am   #44
Richard_FM
Heptode
 
Richard_FM's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 921
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

The EMI 2001s were used by many ITV companies into the 1980s.
__________________
Beware of the trickster on the roof
Richard_FM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 1:25 am   #45
Ted Kendall
Octode
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,677
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

When I was briefly at BBC Bristol in the early 80s, one of the main studios had EMI 2005s, the three-tube variant of the 2001. Asked to describe it in a word, one of the studio engineers replied "soft!" The other studio had Link 110s, which were not liked, as I recall...
Ted Kendall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 6:59 am   #46
Argus25
Nonode
 
Argus25's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Maroochydore, Queensland, Australia.
Posts: 2,561
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

It makes you realize how advanced the Americans were with both monochrome and color TV technology. They were quite happily watching color TV's in their homes in 1954 on the RCA CT-100 TV chassis with the 15GP22 CRT, well over a decade before most countries had it and more than 6 years before many countries like NZ & AU even had monochrome TV.

Also RCA had made FM sound for TV universal in their TV sets & transmission systems immediately post WW2, but other countries were slow to catch on and persisted with AM sound for TV for quite a while.
Argus25 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 8:45 am   #47
Sideband
Dekatron
 
Sideband's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Croydon, Surrey, UK.
Posts: 5,472
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatercathodeshort View Post
BBC2 was transmitting colour for quite a while before the official opening announcement in June for the Wimbledon Tennis. Pre June the transmissions were aimed for the trade and were not official programmes.
I remember that much being true. I was only 14 in 1967 but my older brother (some 14 years older) had been working in the Trade since leaving school in the 50's. In 1966 he was working for Radio Rentals and myself and my mother went to the Trade Show in London, Earls Court. There were lots of colour TV's on show before transmissions started and of course they were all being heavily promoted for the imminent start-up. GEC, Philips, all the Thorn range (2000 chassis) and others were on show.

We were stunned by the quality of some of the sets and have to admit that Thorn and Philips seemed to have nailed it quite early on. I remember seeing 'The Home Made Car' test transmission film and it's still one of my favourites.

Unfortunately the reliability of some sets was questionable.....there were quite a few with the backs off with a number of engineers peering inside them....I actually found that quite interesting!
__________________
On Spike Milligan's headstone......I told you I was ill...

Last edited by Sideband; 10th Nov 2019 at 8:53 am.
Sideband is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 9:10 am   #48
PaulM
Hexode
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Lincoln, UK.
Posts: 310
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Kendall View Post
When I was briefly at BBC Bristol in the early 80s, one of the main studios had EMI 2005s, the three-tube variant of the 2001. Asked to describe it in a word, one of the studio engineers replied "soft!" The other studio had Link 110s, which were not liked, as I recall...
Ah yes, the 2005 . . .

It wasn't being a 3 tube which made it 'soft' - it was something else - no 2 line aperture corrector? I don't know whether they bought the aperture corrector or not, but that could have been it. The 3 tube principle with 'highs out of green' is no barrier to sharp pictures. All subsequent quality studio/OB cameras were RGB with highs out of green apart from a few oddities such as a Bosch which had a 'white' (luminance) instead of green and made that colour using matrix techniques.

The other big downer on 4 tubes is the poor sensitivity - half the light goes to the luminance leaving red, green and blue rather starved. They cost a fortune in terms of studio lighting electricity (and the aircon to remove all the heat).

Philips was quite correct - any very small advantage of 4 tube would be wiped-out in a short space of time as the tubes and electronics advanced. With 20-20 hindsight the 4 tube concept was a horrible mistake, but what magnificent beasts in terms of size and weight!

Best regards,

Paul M
PaulM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 9:11 am   #49
Nuvistor
Dekatron
 
Nuvistor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Wigan, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 7,261
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

YouTube has a lot of the trade test films from around 1967.
The Home Made Car.
https://youtu.be/S2lVR59V1bo
__________________
Frank
Nuvistor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 9:28 am   #50
winston_1
Hexode
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 310
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldmadham View Post
i believe the UK went to colour in 1967---Oz went in 1975, some 8 years later.

In the leadup to the changeover in Australia, it was common practice to transmit Chroma, but not send colour bursts, so it would appear as B&W on a colour TV.

A few clever lads (maybe lasses as well), found they could produce colour with this signal using a "chroma lock" circuit which locked to the picture chroma.

This varied in complexity from a box with a full PCB of components, down to a CR network tacked across some appropriate part of a Philips K9 CTV.

At the TV site where I worked, we were hard at work, trying to drag our 1959 Marconi TV transmitters into the "colour era", so were interested in what our signals looked like in colour.

As well as the rack mounted test receiver, we had a domestic Philips K9 fed from a probe point on the antenna feed.

We performed the mod on this, & after a bit of fiddling, were rewarded with a nice colour picture.

There was one problem, sometimes it would lock up "out of phase", so when watching "Pot Black", the felt was brown, whilst the woodwork & players were green!

I don't think we were spectacularly more inventive in Oz, so there is the distinct possibility that someone may have used the same trick in 1966 in the UK.
I remember seeing colour TV in Canberra in 1972. It was in one of the shops and a placard said it was a test transmission from the TV tower on a nearby hill (mountain). Must admit I didn’t give it much interest as I’d seen it all before a few years earlier in the UK.

Interesting about transmitting colour without the burst. Not heard of that before and I don’t think it was done in the UK, but I could be wrong.
winston_1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 9:44 am   #51
TIMTAPE
Octode
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 1,135
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

I believe Ampex had a colour VTR in 58, two years after their first B/W VTR. Does anyone know when the UK got their first B/W and then colour VTRs?
TIMTAPE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 10:19 am   #52
Nuvistor
Dekatron
 
Nuvistor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Wigan, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 7,261
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

WW August 1958 page 362, I don’t know if earlier ones were delivered, the head life is only 100 hours with 3 spares supplied.
https://americanradiohistory.com/Arc...ld-1958-08.pdf
__________________
Frank
Nuvistor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 10:26 am   #53
cheerfulcharlie
Heptode
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK.
Posts: 555
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

Yorkshire TV's Marconis in action.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HMo8NDZVtQ

However for sheer 60s glam it has to be the PC60, the Americans loved them but could not be seen buying euro cameras, so I think they were called Norelcos over there.

It's a shame that the TV technology decisions were always lead by the BBC in those days.... even then a creaky, eccentric old org making tatty looking programmes for 2 bob. Apparently spent time and effort working on 625 lines for Europe in the 50s while leaving the UK with 405 lines..and such was the forward-thinking of the collective BBC mind that when Top of the Pops moved to London, the studio they were given had colour cameras in..so they chucked them out and put in monochromes...meanwhile while they were wiping popular programmes videotapes to save a few quid , they probably saved hours of tape showing Prince Charles going to Wales to open an envelope from his Mum?
cheerfulcharlie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 11:07 am   #54
Nuvistor
Dekatron
 
Nuvistor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Wigan, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 7,261
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

Some history of the name Norelco, from Wikipedia.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norelco

From the early 1940s, Philco was legally able to prevent Philips from using the name "Philips" on any products marketed in the United States, because the two names were judged to sound similar and that it may cause litigation.[1] As a result, Philips instead used the name Norelco, an acronym for "North American Philips [electrical] Company".
__________________
Frank
Nuvistor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 1:28 pm   #55
Ted Kendall
Octode
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,677
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvistor View Post
WW August 1958 page 362, I don’t know if earlier ones were delivered, the head life is only 100 hours with 3 spares supplied.
https://americanradiohistory.com/Arc...ld-1958-08.pdf
The 1959 film "This is the BBC" has a sequence showing a Quad VTR in apparently routine use, so that sounds about right.
Ted Kendall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 8:33 pm   #56
kan_turk
Hexode
 
kan_turk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 272
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheerfulcharlie View Post
Yorkshire TV's Marconis in action.


..meanwhile while they were wiping popular programmes videotapes to save a few quid
In fairness it was a lot more than ‘a few quid’ - quadruplex videotape was very, very expensive and, as it was re-useable, there was absolutely no way that archiving would be tolerated by the ‘bean counters’ - what material that has survived was often a result of being ‘mislaid......’ - the BBC was not at all unique in this - it was a widespread practice globally - all very regrettable in hindsight but the truth was that the budgets of the day simply could not sustain single use of videotape
kan_turk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 8:49 pm   #57
kan_turk
Hexode
 
kan_turk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 272
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by winston_1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldmadham View Post

In the leadup to the changeover in Australia, it was common practice to transmit Chroma, but not send colour bursts, so it would appear as B&W on a colour TV.

A few clever lads (maybe lasses as well), found they could produce colour with this signal using a "chroma lock" circuit which locked to the picture chroma.

I don't think we were spectacularly more inventive in Oz, so there is the distinct possibility that someone may have used the same trick in 1966 in the UK.
Interesting about transmitting colour without the burst. Not heard of that before and I don’t think it was done in the UK, but I could be wrong.
I can’t speak for GB but this was certainly ‘standard practice’ in Ireland , and I presume elsewhere, prior to commencement of ‘official’ colour service
kan_turk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10th Nov 2019, 10:45 pm   #58
KeithsTV
Nonode
 
KeithsTV's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: South Bradford, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,256
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

There was a thread on the chroma lock method back in 2008. This includes the TV article on how it works.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=26022

Keith
KeithsTV is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11th Nov 2019, 1:47 pm   #59
Peter.N.
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Charmouth, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 3,333
Default Re: Colour TV in UK in 1966-surely not!!

I remember the trade test films well, it was one that led to a couple of visits to 'Evoluon' in Eindhoven. Very interesting it was to - just like the film.

Peter
Peter.N. is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 1:54 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2019, Paul Stenning.