Akai 1710 Valved Reel to Reel.

[Twinkletoes]

Hi everyone. I am brand new to the forum.
Very excited as I have just bought one of the above but am waiting for it to arrive.
It has been used and cherished by the owner for many years and comes with 22 7" tapes.
I would like the shiney Akai aluminium reels to really set it off.
I am a musician so want to actually record myself on it then you tube....of course this will also need a PC, interface and video editor....so whats the point with the reel to reel?....Aghhhhh!..I guess I am nuts.
Is this a good enough model to do it with?
I would like to multi track playing different instruments on each track then play them all back simultaneously but this is impossible on such a machine unless you can advise otherwise.
How did they used to do it?
Cheers

[dave walsh]

Welcome to the Forum TT. This seems to have been a good machine in it's day. They are not at all common in the UK. If it's been well looked after you may be able to record directly but multi-tracking will need a much later model. The 4000 series does sound on sound for example! There are sometimes problems with those due to "monkey [or pot] metal" cams in the mechanism. This applies to the 1710 as well I read. It's a cheap alloy that crumbles easily so the controls should be treated gently. You can check out the 4000 in the search box above. There's a 1710 Handbook on line! Sound on Sound is quite limited although it was done in the sixties. You may find that a multi track professional quality machine is quite expensive.

Dave W

[Michael Maurice]

You should consider replacing the motor run capacitor, I had one 1710 where it literally oozed all its internals out! It’s mounted on the motor casing.

[Twinkletoes]

Originally Posted by Michael Maurice

You should consider replacing the motor run capacitor, I had one 1710 where it literally oozed all its internals out! It’s mounted on the motor casing.

I had read comments before like " change all the capacitors".
Being old kit, is it possible today to get them?
I am guessing they are electrolytics snd axial but they used strange values in the early days?....I mean values that we cannot get today?'

[jamesperrett]

A friend of mine had a 1710 many years ago. I seem to remember it worked fine as a basic stereo recorder but it wasn't really up to doing sound on sound. To do that you need to be able to play one track while recording on the other. I think the later Akai 4000 did this as did a number of other 3 head machines (I used a Philips N4515 for this many years ago).

Sound on sound gives you the sort of technology that Les Paul and Mary Ford were using back in the 1950s but it doesn't give you real multitracking. For that you need at least a 4 track machine like the Teac A3440 which would give you the sort of technology you might have found in studios for a couple of years in the late 1960s. However, it was rapidly superseded by 8, then 16 and then 24 track machines.

If you are serious about wanting an analogue multitrack machine then you might be better off starting with one of the cassette based multitracks or something like a Fostex 8 track machine which can be found for a reasonable price.

[paulsherwin]

Professional analogue multitracking is *very* expensive. That's why pro studios used to cost so much back then. The mainstream recording industry hasn't really used it since the late 80s, though there are some specialist places that have reinstalled old analogue kit for affluent artists who're looking for a retro recording experience.

[Twinkletoes]

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

Professional analogue multitracking is *very* expensive. That's why pro studios used to cost so much back then. The mainstream recording industry hasn't really used it since the late 80s, though there are some specialist places that have reinstalled old analogue kit for affluent artists who're looking for a retro recording experience.

Thank you.
I feared as much.
I will just use it as a means of playing music over a long period of time and enjoy the experience.
I will use my DAW and digital recorders for multi tracking.
Thanks for making that clear.

[DMcMahon]

Originally Posted by Twinkletoes

I had read comments before like " change all the capacitors".
Being old kit, is it possible today to get them?
I am guessing they are electrolytics snd axial but they used strange values in the early days?....I mean values that we cannot get today?'

Capacitor values are not critical, if any replacements required use modern nearest preffered value.

It should not be necessary to change all capacitors, but certainly visually inspect as to their condition and type, testing if any are suspect.

Capacitor C8 (for left and right channels) should be first checked out, this couples the preamp output signals (V3A/V4A anode) to the input of V3B/V4B (control grid), V3B/V4B drive the loudspeakers via output transformers.

If C8 is electriclaly leaky then worse case the output valve (s) and transformer (s) could get damaged.

The parts list lists C8 as Ceramic 0.02 P

Would normally expect Ceramic capacitors to be fairly reliable.

I am confused by the P designation ?

David

[DMcMahon]

In the 1710W service manual, the capacitor C8 above is designated as C2 0.01uF

David

[Michael Maurice]

Originally Posted by Twinkletoes

I had read comments before like " change all the capacitors".
Being old kit, is it possible today to get them?
I am guessing they are electrolytics snd axial but they used strange values in the early days?....I mean values that we cannot get today?'

You'll probably find the other capacitors are okay, just change the motor run capacitor

[DMcMahon]

If your machine has the electrical 50/60 cycles mains frequency changeover switch, then it will have a dual motor run capacitor 2uF + 0.5uF, where in the 50 cycles position the 2uF will be selected and the 0.5uF will be switched across it in parallel, giving a nominal 2.5uF, in the 60 cycles position the 2uF only will be selected.

So if the motor run capacitor does turn out to require replacing, you only require a single run capacitor of 2.5uF for 50Hz or 2uF for 60Hz running, wired to suit.

David

[Twinkletoes]

When you say "motor" do you mean the fan motor or are they all the same thing?
I have taken the guts out and looked at all the caps and they all seem in order and the machine as a whole works.
It stops starts goes erases and records.
Great fun listening to Peter Paul and Mary and the Kingston trio.
I need to get leader tape.
How do we know if the recording and play head is 100% ?
I ask as I was expecting a lot more bass for the size of the two speakers.
Not very bassy at all.

[Analogue man]

The fan motor is the only motor it also drives all of the tape movement functions but the capacitor is relevant as it can effect speed stability. The small speakers on the machine will not produce much bass though.

[Twinkletoes]

Originally Posted by Analogue man

The fan motor is the only motor it also drives all of the tape movement functions but the capacitor is relevant as it can effect speed stability. The small speakers on the machine will not produce much bass though.

Thanks Graham.
The person I bought it off also had a separate set of speakers which I have bought from him now and they have arrived.
I have not connected them up yet but will do.
Will good speakers make a " bass" difference?
Memories often fail us.
I remember at school, our music room was equipped with a green fablon covered Brennel reel to reel.
I was only 15 but I do recall I was excited about the quality of that machine with its on board speakers.
Of course " as time goes by" what we used to hear was the greatest sounds possible.
Now with Digital ( okay I am in the mustard now)...our ears are expecting superb quality and bass sounds never heard before.
Ie....thunderous.
I did not expect thunderous but had it in mind that the Akai speakers on board the machine are actually both really large!
So why are they not performing to what I expected?
I thought valves and analogue were King?

[Analogue man]

The speakers in the machine are a compromise between size and performance and are intended just for monitoring, as a 'HiFi' deck it was always intended by the manufacturer that it be played through a 'HiFi' amplifier and a pair of 'HiFi' speakers. My schools music rooms were equipped with a pair of Leak Floor Standing Sandwich speakers, a Leak Stereo 70 Amplifier and a Goldring Lenco GL75 turntable and back then to me it sounded superb until Granada brought their recording mobile to the school and I heard Quad 303 playing through a pair of Lockwood Tannoys and to this day I still have a pair of Tannoys for my main system.

[Uncle Bulgaria]

Bass requires size for moving a volume of air and chambers closer to the wavelengths. You can't get away from it as it's just physics. For a loudspeaker to have a good bass response it needs a large driver at the least. You'll find some designs have folded horns to get a long length of air connected to the bass driver in a reasonably sized cabinet. It's just impossible to get a deep bass response from a small loudspeaker simply because it can't move the air.

Analogue and digital are just two shorthand ways to refer to recording and reproduction techniques. Although a 'hi-fi' analogue setup can have vanishingly small distortion and a flat frequency response (and any difference from an identical digital source be inaudible), many musicians prefer the way analogue reproduction equipment distorts sound when driven beyond the equipment's clipping boundaries. They're not interested in 'high fidelity' reproduction, which was the goal of analogue recording and playback equipment in C20th.

A single-ended valve amplifier may have distortion measured in percent rather than the hundredths of a percent easily achievable in a digital design. A poor amplifier by comparison with the source going in, but as much of the distortion is in harmonics that we consider melodious, some people decide that this poor amplifier actually sounds nice. It isn't reproducing the original source well, but it adds distortion that some call 'colour' or 'warmth' and acts as an instrument in itself.

Akai will have been trying to make their machine as accurate as possible in their price point, with the goal of minimising distortion, wow and flutter in order to make their machine play back what was recorded as accurately as possible. The loudspeakers in the case will not be able to reproduce the whole signal accurately from their size, and because their relation to the listener and listening room will be different from the recording room, microphone location etc. etc. etc.

There's only going to be 'thunderous' bass if thunderous bass went in, and didn't overload the tape, and can be played back at an equivalent volume on suitable loudspeakers.

We're assuming here that the machine is correctly biased for the tape in use, the tape path is scrupulously clean, the tape is good and the frequency response of a test tape is correct at the requisite test points. There's many a slip 'twixt cup and lip with tape recorders!

[Twinkletoes]

Thank you for the two latest replies.
Now you mention speakers moving air it all makes sense now.
I did not realize that the speakers on board were only for monitoring so will now wire up the separate speakers that I bought from the same person I bought the Tape machine from.
So I need an amp now too?
I thought the tape machine already had an amp but now I know the machine's speakers are for monitoring, the amp was probably built just large enough to do that.
So what make amp should I be looking for?

[Radio Wrangler]

When a loudspeaker cone moves and pushes air out the front, creating a pressure wave outside its cabinet, it also sucks at its rear creating an opposite pressure wave of equal power to the front one.

The internal wave can leave the cabinet via whatever holes there are, and Akai recorders normally have large ones for ventilation and that fan. They are worried about the motor overheating and took lengths to promote cooling airflow.

Outside the cabinet, the two pressure waves meet and cancel. Cancellation isn't exact, because the internal wave is delayed in getting round to the front. At bass frequencies the delay is trivial and the sound waves cancel fairly efficiently. At higher frequencies, the delay is significant and you start to get les efficient cancellation, leaving you some sound to hear.

This is a general problem with speakers in open cabinets.

Numerous ways have been used to prevent this cancellation process. Putting a speaker in a larger 'baffle' increases the round trip for the inside wave and cancellation doesn't happen until lower frequencies and you get better bass. Making that baffle intoo a sealed box around the speaker is like having an infinitely big baffle, but you don't get away so easily. The speaker pumps air pressure in the sealed box and the pressure resists cone motion, spoiling efficiency. Worse, the wave can bounce around inside the box and exit through the cone. This can sound awful. Another trick is to use the internal wave productively by delaying it so that the vibrations come back in time with the front vibrations. This delays the cancelation effect coming in and gives you a boost at the lowest frequencies for more bass. This isn't easy, 'Transmission line' speakers tend to be large and expensive and they also need fancy filtering in the line to kill it off when you get up to frequencies where it would start cancelling again. A halfway house is to have a 'port', a hole in an otherwise sealed cabinet, for the port to be small and to be tuned to make the thing resonant to again boost the bass.

All these methods don't fit with having a tape recorder in the speaker cabinet!

The solution is to have a speaker cabinet designed aroound the needs of being a good speaker, and having a separate cabinet designed around the needs of the tape recorder.

Originally Posted by Twinkletoes

I did not expect thunderous but had it in mind that the Akai speakers on board the machine are actually both really large!
So why are they not performing to what I expected?
I thought valves and analogue were King?

So now you know that even large drive units won't produce bass unless there is cabinetry which lets them. On their own, air can just spill straight round their edges and the sound cancels up to much higher frequencies and everything sounds tinny.

Valves and analogue king?

No. While there have been some very good valved amplifiers, there have also been some absolute garbage, and all quality levels in between. The amplifiers in the Akai, like its speakers are designed to be just good enough to check what's on the tape and maybe do some non-critical listening. For best quality then you need some serious amplification and some serious speakers. Many tape recorders were sold as 'decks', not having the power amplifiers or speakers. They were usually more expensive, the money saved and the extra cost being spent instead on better mechanicals for the tape mechanism and having three heads etc.

It was several years when no-one had figured out how to design a good transistor amp, and while better transistors were being developed where transistor amps got a stinking reputation and a well-deserved one at that. But that was then and this is now. Good designers know how to fix the problems of old and if given the freedom and the budget, can develop some very good amplifiers.

But the 'valves are good transistors are bad' mantra has entered folklore and racial memory. Some people still insist that ANY valve amplifier is better than ANY transistor amplifier. They can get rather nasty if anyone says otherwise. It's become almost a religion. There's no point in arguing with them. Their minds are made up. It's their loss, so don't worry about it.

David

[knobtwiddler]

While there have been some very good valved amplifiers, there have also been some absolute garbage, and all quality levels in between.

This comment made me think of the Yamaha GX-1 Synthesiser

It was Yamaha's flagship synth in 1973, weighing about the same amount as a small car when including all trimmings. The synth engine itself is entirely discrete transistor, whereas the 120W amps are valve, as Yamaha allegedly didn't consider SS amps of the time good enough for their flagship keyboard!

There were some excellent SS amps by the early 70s (even by late 60s). I mention the Yamaha out of curiosity, as they saw fit to let BJTs handle the sound generation duties, but not the amplification -)

[Welsh Anorak]

I'd recommend taking one step at a time.

Try the external speakers first - you will certainly hear an improvement. If you're underwhelmed then the next step would be to use the machine as a deck which means feeding an amplifier from the line output sockets and using that together with good quality speakers to listen to the tapes.

Don't expect too much from this machine. It was a reasonable mid-price unit but doesn't have all the features you might like for 'proper' analogue recording, but it is a nice introduction to the world of reel-to-reel.