Should this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Buzby123 · 8th Nov 2023, 6:41 pm

The 'TV from 1927' thread has a link to this : https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Ar...ion-1927-R.pdf

On page 115 is an advert for an underground antenna which claims to give better radio reception than an old-fashioned 'wire in the air'.

Is this effect real ?

The Philpott · 8th Nov 2023, 6:53 pm

There are some interesting sources online about this...seems to be 'a thing', but of limited efficacy.

Dave

dave walsh · 8th Nov 2023, 8:23 pm

Maybe "Radiophoolery" Buzby but I don't much like either term

There's a lot of Psychology and hearing differences in "Hi-Fi" but not so much on the radio front perhaps? There was a quite expensive vertical aerial in the sixties [the "Joystick". It could be propped up in a corner of the shack and achieve amazing results [allegedly]. There are ads in Practical Wireless of the period!

An equivalent to the subterreanan aerial [a contradiction in terms perhaps?] might be the UK red and black tubular items 3"x1" connected between A and E on the radio set! [I can't recall the name but it looked good with flashes on the side]. As far as I know it was a condensor sealed in black pitch but in the 1930's, great claims re reception were made and many sold. As an alternative to stringing a length of wire at height, you could see that it would have been an attractive proposition, at a very low price and would you have admitted that it didn't work?

Dave W

Ed_Dinning · 8th Nov 2023, 9:07 pm

Hi Dave, sounds like the infamous "mains aerial"; and all in the days before class X&Y capacitors !!

Ed

Paul_RK · 8th Nov 2023, 10:36 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave walsh

the UK red and black tubular items 3"x1" connected between A and E on the radio set! [I can't recall the name but it looked good with flashes on the side]. As far as I know it was a condensor sealed in black pitch but in the 1930's, great claims re reception were made and many sold.

The name Parvo popped into my head, and sure enough...

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=78115

Paul

Radio Wrangler · 8th Nov 2023, 10:37 pm

There have been articles on the development of buried antennae, and reports on military/government research.

The military government were interested in warfare and nuclear survivability. Radio amateurs were on the lookout for stealth antennae to get the planners off their backs.

You can gauge how well they work by the speed at which they rose to dominance

David

dave walsh · 8th Nov 2023, 10:41 pm

Yes indeed and "No Ships and nobody drownded" Ed [p4] [Albert and the Lion]. The sort of things that would make a Health and Safety Officer swoon! Considering the amount of AC/DC gear that was around as well I'm never sure wether the dearth [death] of electrical accidents overall [back then] was down to good manufacturing/isolation at the time, public respect for electricity or simple common sense and caution. None of which seems to be that "common" these days

The very few examples of electrical mishaps that I've come across at all, involved tales from various repair workshops! It's probaly very different now though!

I don't take an automatic dismissive attitude to wonder products. It's not very polite really and you never know do you?. I couldn't ever have afford a Joystick back then but I did meet one or two very down to earth Radio Society people who insisted that it was exceptional. Fair enough

Dave

I thought you would be able to ID the thirties aerial Paul RK.

Thanks very much for downloading the magazine Buzby. I'm always interested in early TV History especially re JLB who spent his last seven years just around the corner from where I am located, near the Station, here in Bexhill.

Craig Sawyers · 9th Nov 2023, 9:16 am

Then there was Tesla's Wardenclyffe machine, which probably could not have worked. Very deep grounded buried antenna, and massive RF generator. He was working in competition to Marconi.

He changed the scope of the machine to be a transmitter of electrical power, as a result he ran out of money, and the machine was dismantled by the receiver and sold for scrap.

Lots on the web about this machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardenclyffe_Tower

Craig

dominicbeesley · 14th Nov 2023, 4:10 pm

I thought I'd google 'subterranean antenna' and this came up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp1ZC0e2W8M

David G4EBT · 14th Nov 2023, 5:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by dominicbeesley

I thought I'd google 'subterranean antenna' and this came up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp1ZC0e2W8M

Hardly 'underground' really - just a few cm below the surface of the sand. Though it's on a beach, it's evident that the coarse-grained sand is very dry, so seemingly not washed by the sea at high tide. Hence, the water table - which the antenna would see as 'ground' -could well be several meters below the surface. So electronically, the antenna isn't really 'underground' at all.

Back in the mid-70s, I lived on the outskirts of Mansfield where the ground was very sandy. Another amateur who lived high on a hill in the village, (great 'take-off'!), was into slow-scan TV in a big way. and had worked all the States on Slow Scan. He wanted to improve his ground connection - just a spike in the 'soil' and made geological enquiries as to how deep the water table was as he thought he might bury an old copper water cylinder for his ground.

The answer was about 600ft down, which will also apply to large areas of the UK.

What used to be call 'Bunter Sandstone' - now the 'Sherwood Sandstone Group' - is present in several different sedimentary basins in large areas of the UK, including the Carlisle, Cheshire and West Lancashire, Worcester, East Yorkshire, Lincolnshire and Wessex basins. The thickness of the deposits varies considerably, from as little as 90m in south Nottinghamshire to over 600 m in Lancashire.

But beneath that sandstone is a layer of impervious clay so with heavy and prolonged rainfall the sandstone will be saturated to a certain level, so the water table maybe be much higher than the base of the sandstone.

See: https://www.bgs.ac.uk/geology-projec...ndstone-group/

Anyone in those areas, who for example uses ground radials, while the radials are at the level of the ground on which we stand, they may be several wavelengths above the water table, which will adversely affect the performance of an antenna in such locations.

Having said all that, I think Sunspot Cycle 25 will have more of an effect than fiddling about with radials, ground posts and the like. Enjoy it while you can - all downhill after June 2025!:

https://www.swpc.noaa.gov/products/s...le-progression

(Do continental amateurs still call 'CQ Dog X-Ray' by the way?)

G6Tanuki · 14th Nov 2023, 6:09 pm

As well as the Partridge Joystick and "subterranean antennas" there's also the 'crossed field' antenna as proposed by a ham in the 80s.

He managed to persuade someone to build a few, from memory one in Shropshire and another in the Middle East, but the old thing about the proof of the pudding came in to play and the idea seems to have returned to obscurity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_field_antenna

Radio Wrangler · 15th Nov 2023, 12:32 am

I did once refer to it as 'The closed-field Antenna' It did not go down well...

There's nothing wrong with creating both the E field and the H field with the right positioning and orientation, though it's not necessary, within about 20 lambda, whichever you made has settled into a proper matched pair, courtesy of James Clark Maxwell. What was wrong with the CFA was that they'd chosen a remarkably inefficient approach to the transducers making the fields. Ordinary dipoles won.

David

stevehertz · 15th Nov 2023, 11:08 am

Many years ago I recall Gerry Wells telling me about some kind of ground aerial that he had discovered whilst digging in his back garden. Also, that on further investigation apparently some kind of 'eminent radio man' had lived at the house prior Gerry. Can anyone elaborate on this memory of mine? Perhaps it's in his book which I have but haven't read yet. Anyone?

But as an aside, an old aerial dodge was to connect your set's aerial socket to the house copper plumbing on the basis that it probably worked better as an aerial than it did as an earth - anyone head of that one?!

Refugee · 15th Nov 2023, 1:09 pm

I once connected a radio between mains earth and the plumbing and it worked quite well.
It was a big building and the pipe runs was quite long.

QQVO6/40 · 17th Nov 2023, 12:47 pm

Greetings all.

I have had here for about 5 years a loop antenna that is buried under the back yard lawn by around 1 inch. Just enough for the mower to miss.
A Log Loop Antenna. A low on ground loop antenna.
Single strand of copper wire, well insulated and water proof about 75 metres in length.
Brought around into a circle and joined to a coax feed line by a small balun.
Receive only as it is way too lossy for transmit.
I use it for general HF reception.
I am surrounded by homes with solar power inverters which are very noisy.
This antenna drops the electronic noise level quite a lot but only attenuates the wanted signals a little bit.
There is a couple of websites with info on this antenna.

Just my 2d worth.
Cheers all.
Robert.

8th Nov 2023, 6:41 pm	#1
Buzby123 Heptode Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Culcheth, Cheshire, UK. Posts: 604	Should this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? The 'TV from 1927' thread has a link to this : https://www.worldradiohistory.com/Ar...ion-1927-R.pdf On page 115 is an advert for an underground antenna which claims to give better radio reception than an old-fashioned 'wire in the air'. Is this effect real ?

8th Nov 2023, 6:53 pm	#2
The Philpott Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Colchester, Essex, UK. Posts: 4,026	Re: Shoud this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? There are some interesting sources online about this...seems to be 'a thing', but of limited efficacy. Dave

8th Nov 2023, 8:23 pm	#3
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,722	Re: Shoud this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? Maybe "Radiophoolery" Buzby but I don't much like either term There's a lot of Psychology and hearing differences in "Hi-Fi" but not so much on the radio front perhaps? There was a quite expensive vertical aerial in the sixties [the "Joystick". It could be propped up in a corner of the shack and achieve amazing results [allegedly]. There are ads in Practical Wireless of the period! An equivalent to the subterreanan aerial [a contradiction in terms perhaps?] might be the UK red and black tubular items 3"x1" connected between A and E on the radio set! [I can't recall the name but it looked good with flashes on the side]. As far as I know it was a condensor sealed in black pitch but in the 1930's, great claims re reception were made and many sold. As an alternative to stringing a length of wire at height, you could see that it would have been an attractive proposition, at a very low price and would you have admitted that it didn't work? Dave W

8th Nov 2023, 9:07 pm	#4
Ed_Dinning Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 8,021	Re: Shoud this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? Hi Dave, sounds like the infamous "mains aerial"; and all in the days before class X&Y capacitors !! Ed

8th Nov 2023, 10:37 pm	#6
Radio Wrangler Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Fife, Scotland, UK. Posts: 22,250	Re: Shoud this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? There have been articles on the development of buried antennae, and reports on military/government research. The military government were interested in warfare and nuclear survivability. Radio amateurs were on the lookout for stealth antennae to get the planners off their backs. You can gauge how well they work by the speed at which they rose to dominance David __________________ Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done

8th Nov 2023, 10:41 pm	#7
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,722	Re: Shoud this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? Yes indeed and "No Ships and nobody drownded" Ed [p4] [Albert and the Lion]. The sort of things that would make a Health and Safety Officer swoon! Considering the amount of AC/DC gear that was around as well I'm never sure wether the dearth [death] of electrical accidents overall [back then] was down to good manufacturing/isolation at the time, public respect for electricity or simple common sense and caution. None of which seems to be that "common" these days The very few examples of electrical mishaps that I've come across at all, involved tales from various repair workshops! It's probaly very different now though! I don't take an automatic dismissive attitude to wonder products. It's not very polite really and you never know do you?. I couldn't ever have afford a Joystick back then but I did meet one or two very down to earth Radio Society people who insisted that it was exceptional. Fair enough Dave I thought you would be able to ID the thirties aerial Paul RK. Thanks very much for downloading the magazine Buzby. I'm always interested in early TV History especially re JLB who spent his last seven years just around the corner from where I am located, near the Station, here in Bexhill. Last edited by dave walsh; 8th Nov 2023 at 10:53 pm.

9th Nov 2023, 9:16 am	#8
Craig Sawyers Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Oxford, UK. Posts: 4,876	Re: Shoud this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? Then there was Tesla's Wardenclyffe machine, which probably could not have worked. Very deep grounded buried antenna, and massive RF generator. He was working in competition to Marconi. He changed the scope of the machine to be a transmitter of electrical power, as a result he ran out of money, and the machine was dismantled by the receiver and sold for scrap. Lots on the web about this machine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wardenclyffe_Tower Craig __________________ Doomed for a certain term to walk the night

14th Nov 2023, 4:10 pm	#9
dominicbeesley Octode Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,884	Re: Should this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? I thought I'd google 'subterranean antenna' and this came up https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pp1ZC0e2W8M

14th Nov 2023, 6:09 pm	#11
G6Tanuki Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 13,468	Re: Should this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? As well as the Partridge Joystick and "subterranean antennas" there's also the 'crossed field' antenna as proposed by a ham in the 80s. He managed to persuade someone to build a few, from memory one in Shropshire and another in the Middle East, but the old thing about the proof of the pudding came in to play and the idea seems to have returned to obscurity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossed_field_antenna __________________ I played a blank tape at full volume. The mime-artiste who lives next door complained.

15th Nov 2023, 12:32 am	#12
Radio Wrangler Moderator Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Fife, Scotland, UK. Posts: 22,250	Re: Should this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? I did once refer to it as 'The closed-field Antenna' It did not go down well... There's nothing wrong with creating both the E field and the H field with the right positioning and orientation, though it's not necessary, within about 20 lambda, whichever you made has settled into a proper matched pair, courtesy of James Clark Maxwell. What was wrong with the CFA was that they'd chosen a remarkably inefficient approach to the transducers making the fields. Ordinary dipoles won. David __________________ Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done

15th Nov 2023, 11:08 am	#13
stevehertz Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Rugeley, Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 8,659	Re: Should this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? Many years ago I recall Gerry Wells telling me about some kind of ground aerial that he had discovered whilst digging in his back garden. Also, that on further investigation apparently some kind of 'eminent radio man' had lived at the house prior Gerry. Can anyone elaborate on this memory of mine? Perhaps it's in his book which I have but haven't read yet. Anyone? But as an aside, an old aerial dodge was to connect your set's aerial socket to the house copper plumbing on the basis that it probably worked better as an aerial than it did as an earth - anyone head of that one?! __________________ A digital radio is the latest thing, but a vintage wireless is forever..

15th Nov 2023, 1:09 pm	#14
Refugee Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK. Posts: 5,536	Re: Should this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? I once connected a radio between mains earth and the plumbing and it worked quite well. It was a big building and the pipe runs was quite long.

17th Nov 2023, 12:47 pm	#15
QQVO6/40 Hexode Join Date: May 2009 Location: Newcastle, Australia Posts: 310	Re: Should this be in the Audiophoolery thread, or is there really such a thing ? Greetings all. I have had here for about 5 years a loop antenna that is buried under the back yard lawn by around 1 inch. Just enough for the mower to miss. A Log Loop Antenna. A low on ground loop antenna. Single strand of copper wire, well insulated and water proof about 75 metres in length. Brought around into a circle and joined to a coax feed line by a small balun. Receive only as it is way too lossy for transmit. I use it for general HF reception. I am surrounded by homes with solar power inverters which are very noisy. This antenna drops the electronic noise level quite a lot but only attenuates the wanted signals a little bit. There is a couple of websites with info on this antenna. Just my 2d worth. Cheers all. Robert.