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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 7:44 pm   #1
NotTheMessiah
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Default Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Hi guys,

First post here, so I hope it's OK to ask some advice... I've hit a bit of a wall with an SL-C30. I'm not having a lot of joy in cleaning up the picture and would appreciate some advice!

The picture has a great deal of noise, more than I would consider normal. See here attached image.

Areas most affected tend to be edges but the picture is in general quite noisy as can be seen. It almost looks like the odd and even fields aren't lining up correctly along with other noise. I'm not sure what could be causing this. In fact yesterday I noticed a moment when the odd and even fields were hugely out of sync, ie odd fields were lagging behind the even fields by around half the display width. This only lasted a few seconds though.

I've so far tried the following:

Everything has had a good clean and where applicable lubrication.
*Recapped the power supply
*Servo adjustment, this helped a little especially with stability of still images.
*New video heads - no difference
*Recapped input area of head amp - no difference

Would any resident experts or ex-technicians/service people have any tips?

Many thanks!

BTW, I've also posted over on palsite to see if the guys there have any wisdom to share on the matter.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 8:38 pm   #2
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Hi. From what I can tell, this machine works just fine. You are seeing a lot of noise because you are using the VCR with an LCD/LED set. These sets usually have not good upscalers so you end up with a bad 4:3-to-16:9 picture quality especially when watching analog video formats. Try it with a CRT set and let us know what you get.

Fivos
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 9:36 pm   #3
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Hi,
From experience I imagine the image you posted looks softer than on the screen.

I had this on a Panasonic machine recently, head cleaning didn't really work at first.
I used isopropyl alcohol on printer paper and cleaned the heads manually, then ran a tape cleaner (good quality non abrasive one, and the picture cleaned up nicely.

I use a 40in led tv and have no real issues with quality of picture on any of the machines. It's never going to be DVD quality but some machines with decent tapes come close.

Cheers

Steve
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 9:53 pm   #4
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Thanks for the replies chaps.
I don't have a CRT TV to check it with but it has been tested on a high quality plasma set to 4:3 aspect ratio with largely similar results so I'm not entire sure it is an issue resulting from a poor upscaler.

As for head cleaning, they are definitely clean. They've been cleaned a few times with alcohol and are not producing any residue on the paper. I have also tried a new set of heads (new old stock and so clean the head chips shine) in there too with the expectation that would help but alas it did not. So I think the problem is more electronic in nature rather than it is in the actual tape read.

Oh and if anything the image on screen looks worse than that. The noise is quite sharp and well pronounced.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:39 pm   #5
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Are you using the rf connections or the phono ones for video output?

Here's the before and after pictures of mine when I cleaned it. Would be surprised if anything component wise was making it look grainy. Usually dropout, lines or flickering is component failure.

Maube someone that has the same machine could verify the picture quality expected from a fully working one.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 10:54 pm   #6
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Just a point ,is that recording done on said machine or another I wonder?
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 11:01 pm   #7
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

It's connected over composite so phono. I agree the image does look similar to that of dirty heads. It just seems odd that even after cleaning with alcohol and paper the results are the same, and the same again with new heads.

It sort of feels like something is introducing noise within the head amp but I'm not clear how that could happen.

The second of your images there is exactly how I expect the image to look.

I used to have a Sanyo (VTC5000 i think) that was a little grainy compared to a Sony C7 I had so maybe the C30 just isn't of great quality but I find that a little odd as generally the Sony's tended to produce a good quality picture free from grain.

I'm not seeing an unusual amount of drop out, and essentially none with a good tape.
New recordings are however slightly better, but still not what they should be so I do suspect some noise is being introduced somewhere. Possibly alignment is off, but I've given everything a tweak and nothing has any real affect on things.

HamishBoxer, that image is from an ex-rental tape but even when making a test recording from a DVD source the results are not hugely improved.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 11:46 pm   #8
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Two faults that spring to mind on the SLC 20/30/40 range are C319 (22uF I think) caused patterning on playback and E-E, but this is in the PSU so you have ruled that out already.

I have had DL01 a delay line on the video board go faulty the odd few times and this only affects playback, if my memory serves this was part of the drop out compensator circuit but I could be wrong about this last point (part of the DOC circuit) as you are talking about 25 years ago since I last had this fault.

I only actually still recall these two faults because I wrote them down and I have kept most of my service notes.
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Old 3rd Feb 2017, 11:59 pm   #9
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

DL01 was something I had considered as possibly being at fault though as far as I understand it that typically leads to wavey lines in the picture. Similar symptoms of a bad cap in the power supply when connected over RF.

Unfortunately I have no spare to swap it out with to check.
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Old 4th Feb 2017, 12:24 am   #10
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

I'll have a look in the service manual for the part number of that delay line and see if I can find one floating around the internet. If the price is right I'll give it a go.

It's a rather frustrating fault as otherwise the machine is working perfectly.
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Old 5th Feb 2017, 12:22 am   #11
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

So a quick update. Today I found some leaking caps on ss-16 and yc-25 right by dl-001. I recapped most of ss-16 and replaced the leaking caps on yc-25. It has helped a little but excessive noise is still present. Tomorrow I'm going to replace more electrolytics on ss-16 and yc-25 and shall report back. I am however leaning ever more toward dl-001 going bad. I should really invest in a scope to help trace these sort of problems!
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Old 5th Feb 2017, 1:11 am   #12
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Are the heads aligned?

Betamax heads are not the same 'drop in and off you go' nature of VHS head drums.

It's pot luck if you can get the heads to align without any drama, basically you have to spin the disc and watch for any high spots,but for accuracy and future wear problems you may need the Betamax eccentricity gauge kit.

For description purposes only.

http://www.qservice.tv/vpasp/shopexd.asp?id=9464

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Old 5th Feb 2017, 2:38 am   #13
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

I thought that was only necessary with older series sony's (c5, c6, c7 and such)? This one doesn't use the same head disk construction as those and is the same type of construction as used in the sanyos in that the head chips just poke through a gap between the upper and lower drum rather than the whole disk forming a rotating mid section of the drum. And even the manual that came with the new heads does not mention a requirement for an eccentricity gauge, so please forgive me if I'm mistaken but are you perhaps thinking of the older series sony's?

Regardless though the problem was present before any attempt at changing the heads, thougj of course there is no guarantee the heads it came with were correctly fitted... but even so no change has been seen with either cleaning or replacing heads.
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Old 5th Feb 2017, 3:18 am   #14
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Are there any surface mount electrolytics anywhere in the video circuits? They almost always leak in Sony equipment of this vintage.

Also look out for any gold/ brown coloured glue on the PCB's. It tends to go conductive over time so best to scrape it away.
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Old 5th Feb 2017, 3:22 am   #15
NotTheMessiah
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

No suface mount stuff and the only glue is on the 3H hall effect sensor on the drum which appears to be functioning fine. I do have two new old stock spares though so could change it out but the drum seems to be in servo lock ok as far as I can tell.
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Old 5th Feb 2017, 10:44 am   #16
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotTheMessiah View Post
I thought that was only necessary with older series sony's (c5, c6, c7 and such)? This one doesn't use the same head disk construction as those and is the same type of construction as used in the sanyos in that the head chips just poke through a gap between the upper and lower drum rather than the whole disk forming a rotating mid section of the drum. And even the manual that came with the new heads does not mention a requirement for an eccentricity gauge, so please forgive me if I'm mistaken but are you perhaps thinking of the older series sony's?

Regardless though the problem was present before any attempt at changing the heads, thougj of course there is no guarantee the heads it came with were correctly fitted... but even so no change has been seen with either cleaning or replacing heads.
I believe you are correct.
I've changed over heads on a Sanyo 5150,NX100 and a Sony SLHF950 and all went in the same as the ones removed any playback is fine. They are all on a disc pre aligned at the factory.
The eccentricity gauge is for the older or earlier models especially the Toshiba ones.
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Old 5th Feb 2017, 10:48 am   #17
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Thumbs up Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotTheMessiah View Post
I'll have a look in the service manual for the part number of that delay line and see if I can find one floating around the internet. If the price is right I'll give it a go.

It's a rather frustrating fault as otherwise the machine is working perfectly.
Have you tired other recordings, even ones ON that vcr?
Sometimes you can be fooled into thinking the vcr has issues when it's the recording done elsewhere ones that had.
Also most LCD type TV's have noise suppression circuits that can clean up an old recording very nicely indeed.
Make sure too you are watching the recording in the aspect ratio it was transmitted in. You will get the proper amount of detail and clarity. I've seen so many utilising 16:9 when it should be 4:3 and the image is stretched and horrible and the detail is lost too for these analogue formats.

....Kevin
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Old 5th Feb 2017, 12:25 pm   #18
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotTheMessiah View Post
I thought that was only necessary with older series sony's (c5, c6, c7 and such)? This one doesn't use the same head disk construction as those and is the same type of construction as used in the sanyos in that the head chips just poke through a gap between the upper and lower drum rather than the whole disk forming a rotating mid section of the drum. And even the manual that came with the new heads does not mention a requirement for an eccentricity gauge, so please forgive me if I'm mistaken but are you perhaps thinking of the older series sony's?

Regardless though the problem was present before any attempt at changing the heads, thougj of course there is no guarantee the heads it came with were correctly fitted... but even so no change has been seen with either cleaning or replacing heads.
Apologies for the detour, posting late and not looking at your picture. I had not come across the later models with head problems. From your picture it looks one head output is low and a field is playing up (but then you would notice people walking etc in the picture would have a sort of animated look)
But as others imply it could be something to do with the set up your modern TV (especially a 4.3 to 16.9 conversion)and maybe you could find a CRT set to confirm this.
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Old 5th Feb 2017, 1:11 pm   #19
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

So moving objects when fast enough do have an animated look to them. Head amp adjustment has little affect on anything. Adjusting PB level for each head and even the balance makes no difference to the picture, even with an extreme adjustment. The only thing that can be observed is a temporary flash of noise as the balance altered. This doesn't seem right to me. This machine may have several issues causing the noise.

Re: recordings. That picture is from an ex-rental tape. I have tried other tapes from different origins and all playback with the same noise. I have made test recordings on this machine from a dvd source and still the noise is present.

Re: display type and aspect ratio. I have tried this both on lcd and plasma, tried both in 4:3 and 16:9, and have connected both with composite or rf to examine any difference. Rf might be slightly better but i think that's more just because the whole image is softened slightly compared to composite.
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Old 5th Feb 2017, 8:26 pm   #20
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Default Re: Sony SL-C30 noisy picture

Update.
I replaced all electrolytics on the servo control portion of ss-16.
Replaed all electrolytics on yc-25 and other video board (I forget the number now)
No huge improvment sadly. Things definitely look better over rf than they do over composite, which makes me question that delay line.

As of now i'm out of ideas.
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