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Old 26th Mar 2024, 10:52 am   #1
Martin G7MRV
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Default Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

I believe this is a much more sensible place for such a 'general' discussion,

This is clearly a rather emotive subject and there will be many opinions, so I will simply state my opinion and allow the discussion to flow -

"In an educational setting, where the ordinary public and/or school groups are in attendance, a working, live piece of equipment is more engaging than a static display. That engagement leads to discussion, questions, inspiration, and enhances education. In specific respect to vintage electronics, we run into certain safety concerns. It is my opinion that a visually authentic front of the equipment but backed where necessary with modern technology in order effect a working demonstration, is a much better way of keeping the history alive than a truly original piece of dead equipment, or an original, working item that must be kept barriered away from the observing public. It is also my opinion, that true authenticity is best where that is a practical and safe possibility. This is not always the case, and often not desirable anyway. Take a H2S PPI unit for instance - a real live image on screen, but faked via modern microcontrollers? or a dead, dumb display unit with a printed picture on a card beside it? Which will get return visitors? What if to fake that image requires installing a TFT screen instead of the crt to fake it? Better or worse from the educational point of view? After all, if you visit a war of the roses re-enactment, you dont expect all their equipment and clothing to be original, you expect it to be authentic looking replica, with a few original artifacts

It is my position that the impact on the visitor is first an foremost.Create awe, inspire, educate. Obtain return visitors, impress the public such that they donate, buy merch, drink and eat in the NAAFI. But most importantly - leave happy. If faking it rather than adhering to originality does this, surely THAT is the role of the museum? "

feel free to discuss
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Old 26th Mar 2024, 11:08 am   #2
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

There are no simple or easy solutions to these problems. 'Real' museums are about preservation, and even most restoration is frowned on. However, there has been an increasing trend over the last 30 years for many museums to become more like entertainment centres and even theme parks, with lots of gimmicky hands on stuff to attract children. Striking a suitable balance is challenging.
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Old 26th Mar 2024, 11:36 am   #3
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

Whatever Lucien Nunes had to say on the subject, I agreed with him - his museum proposals were wonderful and seemed to strike just the right balance.

Knowing some re-enactors, I will say that one ought never to get into an 'authenticity' discussion with them. The cliques that emerge between grades of perceived realism are cuthroat!
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Old 26th Mar 2024, 2:15 pm   #4
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

There are so many variables - each museum will have its individual demographic of visitors, and for each museum there are different demographics who might be reached with a change in publicity, or who might be more satisfied if particular changes were made to the museum itself. Lately I'm a volunteer at Fakenham's Gas Museum, the only remaining town gasworks in England. Firing up the retorts would be out of the question for many reasons, and the furthest we go toward "faking it" are a few simple blue paper cut-outs simulating flames on the burners of the various generations of cookers in the showroom. Most visitors seem very pleased, and many surprised at how engaging they find their time with us, but I'm sure that having knowledgeable stewards on duty who are happy to adapt to the very various interests of different parties of visitors helps with that. Some visitors know the gas industry at first hand, others like to imagine how working life was for a stoker in the retort house: some take a scientific interest, others appreciate the intricate ornamentation of older equipment: some really just want to see again some of the different appliances they've known throughout their lives; occasionally there's a model train enthusiast aiming to build the perfect town gasworks replica for his network...

Replacing a CRT by TFT display: well, something's lost and something's gained; is there, in the individual case, a value in preserving the object in its original state as an object? All depends on what works in the setting, if a significant proportion of visitors seem bored by or indifferent to what they see there's probably room for improvement, which could be in the direction of more simulation, or might just be better and more inviting displays of information, or the availability of enthusiastic guides who can try to customise the experience to individuals' interests and imaginations.

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Old 26th Mar 2024, 2:44 pm   #5
Chrispy57
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

Hi Martin - as you say it can be an emotive subject, and I hope that my opinion doesn't cause too much negative emotion here on the Forum. You saved the most important word in your opinion statement until the very last - "museum", and that's what I would take issue with here.

Like so many other examples in modern life, there are those who choose to adopt their own version of a concept and expect others to accept it, effectively redefining the concept in the process. This is what "political correctness" has been rather effective in doing to society over the last few decades.

The polarisation of opinion on the specific topic that you have posed here is another example of this phenomenon: when is a museum not a museum? If you eviscerate a museum artefact and repackage it to monetise its existence for the benefit of the museum, and maximise its appeal for the entertainment of a sub-set of its visitors, is it still a genuine museum artefact in a genuine museum?

There are those who would say ""please stop stealing our words (museum and H2S PPI) and invent your own instead to accurately describe what you have produced and now offer for display".

Cheers
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Old 26th Mar 2024, 3:12 pm   #6
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

It would arguably be better if the terms 'education centre' or 'activity centre' were used rather than 'museum' for setups which aren't primarily about preservation and conservation.

Current political and social concerns about inclusion and accessibility are complicating the issues still further, but discussion of such subjects isn't allowed on this forum.
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Old 26th Mar 2024, 3:33 pm   #7
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

I'm involved with the Museum of Communications which started life in the foyer of Edinburgh University's King's Buildings. Heinz Wolff used to be our patron. So we have definite links to formal education and also to getting young people doing things.

A museum of lifeless exhibits attracts few people and doesn't get those engaged. Mausoleum might be more appropriate.

At the other end of the spectrum, everything could be faked and just shown as simulations on a screen. And that just skims the surface of people's minds for different reasons.

We currently have a mixture on the general exhibition floor. A lot of broadcast-related stuff from the BBC 100 anniversary plus some old favourites.

Kids are drawn to the hands-on Morse exhibit, and to the green-screen studio which points a camera at them and screens them on roller coasters, in racing cars etc.

Older visitors seem captivated with the hands-on working Strowger exchange.

There is a working radio room which interested people can get invited into, but it has a large window so people on the open floor can look in There are valved transmitters and linear amplifiers and Ken usually has things operating.

Tours of the stacks of stored gear happen and there are a few R1155/T1154 setups and tales of them in Lancs get interest. There are big broadcast valves and a lot of donations from Ferranti Radar like a TSR2 setup. In the cellar, there's the desks from BBC radio Scotland studio in Glasgow.

Ferranti became Selex and a few more names. One of our friends actually arranged a full episode of Robot Wars t be done in the main atrium of their new building at Davidson's Mains. The building as well as everyone survived! All sorts of historic radar gear around the galleries and a bust of the original Sebastian Ziani De Ferranti looking over it all.

There's plenty happening up here, and it's very satisfying getting someone thinking.

I sometimes ask myself 'How would Lucien have done it?'

David
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Old 26th Mar 2024, 4:10 pm   #8
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
A museum of lifeless exhibits attracts few people and doesn't get those engaged. Mausoleum might be more appropriate.
Museum seems perfectly appropriate to me: "A building or portion of a building used as a repository for the preservation and exhibition of objects illustrative of antiquities, natural history, fine and industrial art, or some particular branch of any of these subjects, either generally or with reference to a definite region or period, Also applied to the collection of objects itself." (OED). It's okay to have no interest in museums as such.

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Old 26th Mar 2024, 4:10 pm   #9
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

Anyone who visits the pair of museums on the Bletchley Park site can compare and contrast the two main approaches to this subject.

The National Museum Of Computing consists largely of working exhibits tended by knowledgable (but volunteer) experts, and some of the equipment can be operated by visitors.

Bletchley Park is more like what the late, redoubtable Baroness Trumpington (who worked there during WW2) described as a "Theme Park". A large collection of buildings, expertly restored to their 1945 appearance and fitted out like stage sets to show what went on there. There are a lot of video screens and display panels and the collections of historic equipment are all static. Visitors can follow a trail round the site, guided by a handheld device with full explanations and background information.

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Old 26th Mar 2024, 5:18 pm   #10
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

In today's financial climate, if a museum is to survive, against the background of an increasing burden of heating and lighting costs, it's essential to keep the punters visiting. In order to encourage many of them to re-visit, the exhibits need to evolve, be changed, or enhanced and new material needs to be introduced. For the younger element, hands-on interactivity is key to keeping their attention, even for a few minutes. There will always be a few stalwarts, often retired people, who like to come back and reminisce about "the old days" for whom changing or working exhibits is not such a key criterion. Overall, then, a mix of old and new, working and non-working but most importantly changing displays. This presents particular challenges where I volunteer (at an aviation museum) where moving exhibits around is not a task to be undertaken lightly..... Jerry
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Old 26th Mar 2024, 6:41 pm   #11
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

Must admit, I was a great fan of sadly silent-key Lucien's approach.

"Show and Tell" gets much more engagement and interest than dead exhibits behind plexiglass screens or in glass cases.

OK, there's a place for 'archives' - with the content meticulously indexed in whatever state it happens to be, and the indexes being properly searchable with retrieval mechanisms so an academic can call-up something from the vaults for research purposes - that's a different matter, just as Oxford's Bodleian Library is different from your local library hosting reading-mornings for kids and lending-out audiobooks.

I like 'active' exhibits. If you're running a radio-with-somewhat-military-content exhibit, I would think of background ambience from something like an AR88 [suitably reworked to make sure it's always-on-reliable] tuned to the likes of the RAF Metair broadcasts [5.450MHz] - yes they're SSB but an AR88 should stay on tune for hours....

And maybe another idea - something like an old 1930s broadcast radio, an AR88 and a modern SDR all set to the same SW broadcast-station [Voice of America? BBC WS?] with the ability of a visitor to switch between them, so showing how improving technology improved reception?
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Old 26th Mar 2024, 7:35 pm   #12
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

This thread arose in the context of a question about the conversion of a WW2 T1154 RAF transmitter to use solid-state electronics internally rather than covering the cost of the original valves.

I am all in favour of having fully working exhibits - whether that be in a museum, out in a field, or in a collector's home. And indeed I did such working demos from about 1994 through to 2014 – all in short term settings, and while I tried to move to the museum setting never quite managed that.

We can ask what will actually enthuse, inform and educate visitors to such a display? I believe it’s the following:
1. Seeing the original equipment, in its entirety if possible, so that its size, complexity, number of knobs, etc can be taken in. These are not trivial points, because modern electronics is typically tiny, weighs almost nothing and has very few (if any) knobs!
2. Seeing the equipment working – what sort of noise does it make? If it has a display, how easy is to view? You may well need low light levels to see an authentic WW2 era CRT.
3. How easy is the equipment to operate – this needs a knowledgeable demonstrator who can talk visitors through exactly what is happening. Most WW2 equipment needs entirely different skills from say, a modern laptop!
4. Demonstrating what the equipment can do – or in most cases – just how little it can do. A T1154 can be easily demonstrated working to another UK/western European station – beyond that it gets tricky – a vast contrast from today’s mobiles, email, etc.

So a visitor to a working T1154/R1155 station might well learn just how difficult it was to communicate say 200 miles. A typical demonstration on the 80m amateur band will show just how much QRM etc a typical voice link has to put up with. The skill level on CW is also pretty impressive – assuming you can find someone with the necessary skills!

If you then rip out the guts of a historic T1154, and replace it all with solid-state electronics you end up short-circuiting all the above. Depending on quite how it was done, most of the knobs on a T1154 would become redundant – since only a frequency setting control is needed. Its unlikely that the drift, chirp and low modulation level of the original T1154 could be easily replicated.

Its possible learn from other “working museums”. Historic railways are a case in point – authentic steam engines remain enormously popular with the public. Sure they can be replaced with diesels, but they fail to draw the public, but sometimes have to be substituted for steam because of technical failures on the day. Steam engines are an enormous amount of work – and require a lot of skill to run. But their value to recording an experiencing “our history” remain invaluable.


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Old 26th Mar 2024, 8:24 pm   #13
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

"After all, if you visit a war of the roses re-enactment, you dont expect all their equipment and clothing to be original, you expect it to be authentic looking replica, with a few original artifacts."

I have visited many such re-enactments. Of course their equipment is not original, since anything original is mostly rusty and beyond use, or is safely locked away in a museum, because its extremely rare.

But the replicas are entirely authentic. That is chain mail is made in a similar way to the way it originally was. It weighs the same as the original. Its not made of some aluminium alloy just because its now possible to do that - at least not on the replica battlefields I've been to!

Same with any armour. Its horrible, hot sweaty, and has to be looked after. And its in no way "cheap", just because something "modern" could be rigged up to do something similar.

The bows I have seen in such settings are made from yew, as they traditionally were, not some other wood, or even titanium alloy etc, just because its easier to do so.

Virtually everything on a re-enactment battlefield is "replica", but that doesn't make it inauthentic. Re-enactors go to extraordinary lengths to make everything authentic, down to the clothes they wear, the tents they sleep in, and the food they ear. And they can explain in great detail (if you ask) what they have, and why they think its authentic.

I suggest museums should aim for same high standards.


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Old 26th Mar 2024, 8:46 pm   #14
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

When I was something like 10 years old, I was taken to The School Boys and Girls Exhibition, at either Earl's Court or Olympia.

There, I saw my first television camera, on the Ampex stand, and was fascinated to see what would happen when pointing the camera to the monitor it was feeding.
The result was the intro to Dr Who.

It had a real effect on me that I still remember it 60+ years later, and I suspect was a reason for wanting to make a career in the broadcast industry. If we want young people to be inspired, we need to allow hands-on experiences. Difficult these days with so much being done in software, the workings of which aren't visible.

As to the 'conflict' between originality and function, I agree that it depends on the purpose of the exhibit. In my repairs / restorations, the first thing I ensure is electrical safety, replacing old two-core mains wiring with properly earthed cabling, and adding isolating transformers in live chassis equipment. I'd rather not have to rely on 70 year old insulation and safety standards for safety. Ditto replacing old capacitors and resistors with new components, although if the caps are visible, such as many valve amplifiers, I'll try and restuff the original cans. If that's not acceptable as not original, then the equipment will have to be for static display only, not operational.

Having said that, I get cross if I see a lovely old radiogram have the guts removed and replaced with a modern Class D amp and bluetooth receiver.

S.
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Old Yesterday, 6:05 pm   #15
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin G7MRV View Post
Take a H2S PPI unit for instance - a real live image on screen, but faked via modern microcontrollers? or a dead, dumb display unit with a printed picture on a card beside it? Which will get return visitors? What if to fake that image requires installing a TFT screen instead of the crt to fake it? Better or worse from the educational point of view?

Over the last decade and a half I have tussled with the question of how to meaningfully display H2S - the first WW2 airborne radar system - to a museum audience. I was in fact the part owner of a near complete H2S Mk.II system, and they are now exceedingly rare in the UK. The only thing we didn't have was the antenna and its rotator system. We had everything else - multiple boxes, piles of cables, and the 1200W aircraft generator for a 80V 1600c/s supply.

The first problem with displaying radar is that very few museum visitors have experience of any radar system, other than seeing a rotating aerial on ships and airports. Few people have seen the display or tried to interact with one. This is markedly different from cars, steam trains, broadcast radios, old TVs, toasters, etc.

You could try and energise just the PPI display unit with a "dumb" but real (in terms of low brightness) display. There was one built by Norman Groom, as part of his Lancaster cockpit recreation - see pics for its auction in past years at: https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...sale-150K.html - and the first thing to note is that the PPI unit (right hand side of 3rd pic down) - is only half the operator's equipment. There is also the Switch Unit to the right of the PPI. And then we ought to mention the Fishpond display which is next to the T1154/R1155 (2nd photo) operated by the radio operator.

Of course it would be possible to put up some sort of display just on the PPI unit, with the knobs doing nothing at all. But what's the point. No interactivity. Nothing to indicate how the thing works, or even what it does!

To get an airborne radar system working on the ground, with meaningful displays is a task of immense complexity. It totally defeated me once I understood what was involved. I did figure out though that only way to do it - since no-one can switch on a 9cm radar system these days - is to recreate the original WW2 ground training system.

This training system used ultrasonic - i.e. sound waves - rather than E-M waves - with a frequency of around 1MHz. This involved a large table top display (rather like a model railway layout) with replica towns, villages and countryside all in miniature. And over this you could "fly" a replica plane with its "ultrasonic radar" on board. And this would then produce authentic displays on the H2S PPI and you could control the system with the Control Unit. Clearly this would produce something for a museum to be very proud of indeed.........and I can imagine it entertaining kids to grandads for quite a while!

Someone in VMARS tried to reproduce the H2S training system back in the 2000s. He had to give up, reportedly because the high frequency ultrasonic transducers were prohibitively expensive. They must have been extremely costly because anyone playing with authentic H2S already has a budget in the £thousands....!

Incidentally, I don't think fixing a TFT panel over a H2S screen and driving it from an Arduino really does produce anything of any value at all - all it proves is that someone is clever with modern electronics.....it tells us nothing all about radar duing WW2, or H2S in particular.



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Old Yesterday, 8:35 pm   #16
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

I can see the value, continuing from the previous example, of having some modern electronics when the original is prohibitive for a whole variety of reasons. Cost can sometimes be overcome, but when lots of difficulties pile up one is left with a non-working exhibit.

With the radar, would it have been possible to recreate part of it, with knobs manipulating a software component to change what is shown on the screen? I'm sure those with any coding knowledge would put their heads in their hands at this point, but it seems the pitfalls with that are surmountable with current knowledge rather than esoteric components and crumbling manuals.

For the average 'punter' with zero knowledge of radio, radar or the electronics of the period, seeing a recreation is a lot better than nothing. G6Tanuki's idea of having the same station on different radios is a good one. I may have no idea what SSB is and only a vague idea of how radio works, but I know that artificially distorted 'olde' radio sounds that are honked out in mp3 for flavour are not accurate! Those with knowledge could ask the exhibitor and get the low-down on what the problems were with making the original work as intended.

When we go to the theatre or see a film, we know it's not reality. This showmanship and willing suspension of disbelief certainly has its place in making a museum engaging. Even with a re-enactment, we can have no certain idea of how people interacted or what they sounded like. No matter how zealously copied the accoutrements and clothing, we're always being part of an imagined simulacrum when we interpret history. There is no absolute truth of interpretation or means of display.

As long as the artefact isn't irreparably damaged I'd rather see something approximately working than not.
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Old Today, 1:30 pm   #17
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

This isn't an easy topic to discuss and I believe there will never be definite answers to these questions that are acceptable to everyone.

The first issue arises with the perception of what "original" means.
For example, if an original, but damaged vintage device's power cord was replaced with a newer one, is this device still considered original?

- If not, then the amount of available original units will most likely be close to zero as anything electronic, that is many decades old, was most likely repaired in one way or the other, and components were eventually replaced. Even if all the repairs that were done used identical component models as replacements, can the unit really still be considered original? And what about changing the original valves with similar replacements but from a different manufacturer?

- On the other hand, if we consider that changing things such as a power cord, a power plug or a valve aren't big enough changes to stop considering that device to be in its original condition, then where do we draw the line between original and not original? Can we consider here that a device is original as long as it retains its intended functionality, mode of operation and external physical properties? And if that's so, then a non-working unit, that retains all the factory components, can no longer be considered original given that it no longer operates?!

I'm of the opinion that a working unit worth more than a non-working unit, even if original components were replaced with entirely different ones, as long as the external physical properties, functionality and mode of operation is kept as close as possible to what was originally specified by the manufacturer. I'm aware that this is also highly subjective, as what I'm willing to tolerate will differ from someone else that might even sympathize with my view.

When it comes to museums, if they have a well preserved, unused, out-of-the-factory unit, then there's little to nothing to complain about (at least for most of the people). But if there is a slightest deviation from the manufacturer drawings and specifications, then the happiness of the visitor will mainly depend on where their tolerance line was drawn - but eventually a lot more people will be unsatisfied one way or the other, because it wouldn't be up to their predefined standards.

For me, given the choice of seeing a non-working original unit, or an approximation that can operate and show its functionality even if it deviates from the original unit, I definitely prefer to see the working unit, as long as the modifications are properly documented (either in text, or pictures, or both).

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Old Today, 4:34 pm   #18
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

My view is that the original circuit design must be presered for the unit to be 'oriignal'.

So replacing the mains lead is fine.

Replacing a 12AX7 valve with an ECC83 is fine

Replacing a RIFA metalised paper capacitor with an electrically suitable part which is not going to break down and emit smoke is fine

Replacing a 74LS00 chip with a 74HCT00 is borderline fine

You should of course keep a log book of all repairs and changes.

BUT :

Replacing a valve circuit with one using transistors or ICs is NOT fine

Replacing the internals of a desktop calculator with an RPi running an emulator is NOT fine

Replacing a CRT with an LCD monitor is NOT fine

Replacing an internal linear power supply with a switch-mode one is NOT fine (it's dubious if it's OK to use a different wall wart)
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Old Today, 11:30 pm   #19
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Default Re: Vintage equipment in modern educational settings - opinions

Just a short example to show how well "old stuff" in action can be used:
One of my sons had to give a class in history on "Political situation of the city of Berlin from 1949 to 1989". The audience: A hundred pupils and teachers of a countryside school. So what to do? Lots of photos, many power point video presentations and such? Naw, might be boring.
He choose at one point to use a pantry transmitter and set up a huge Greatz Sinfonia Radio on the (darkened) stage, playing parts of the 1963 speech by Pres. Kennedy "Ich bin ein Berliner" at full volume. All audience were totally silent and listening, you could literally feel the goosebumps on the skin of everyone.
Later we even got offers for that radio! So I'd always opt to "go live" with original equipment for education.
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