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Television Standards Converters, Modulators etc Standards converters, modulators anything else for providing signals to vintage televisions. |
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5th Jul 2011, 9:15 pm | #1 |
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405-line o/p from Linux
[Split from here - Kat]
Kat, if I make a break-off thread, would you be so kind as to elaborate on the process involved in getting a linux based system to output 405 lines? I have a first class degree in computer and network technology, so don't worry, you shouldn't baffle me with tech-speak. Dave. Last edited by Kat Manton; 6th Jul 2011 at 7:07 am. Reason: Thread split |
5th Jul 2011, 10:47 pm | #2 |
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Re: Simple memory card player idea
Okay...
Code:
Option "ConnectedMonitor" "CRT" HorizSync 9.0 - 11.0 VertRefresh 45.0 - 55.0 DisplaySize 128 96 Modeline "405i50" 8.10 664 680 752 800 378 379 386 405 -hsync -vsync interlace Kat |
6th Jul 2011, 4:55 am | #3 |
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Re: Simple memory card player idea
Do you actually need the nVidia binary driver, or will it work with the open source one? After all, it's only a mode line .....
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6th Jul 2011, 6:45 am | #4 |
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Re: Simple memory card player idea
I couldn't get smooth playback with the 'nv' driver (probably as it lacks XvMC.) The 'nouveau' driver also lacks XvMC, so I haven't tried it. What I've listed works. Anything else; I've tested it and it doesn't work, I know it won't work or I haven't tested it.
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6th Jul 2011, 8:24 am | #5 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
The newer Ubuntus use a different method than X server file...
I've not tried two graphics adaptors on Linux. Maybe you could use Motherboard video for the VGA and a PCI/AGP /PCIe card for the 405? |
6th Jul 2011, 9:03 am | #6 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
Since I've split the thread...
Can I use this as a standards converter? If you mean converting an analogue 625-line input to an analogue 405-line output; probably, but you really don't want to.Why MythTV? Isn't there something simpler? There's tvtime. This is fairly basic, it'll work with (supported) analogue and digital TV cards and can use the composite video input of cards which have one. It just displays whatever channel is selected or displays whatever is being fed into the analogue input.Can't you make modelines with 1:1 PAR? No. The pixel clock is derived from a crystal oscillator on the graphics card and the PLL on the card can not be programmed to produce any arbitrary pixel clock frequency. You can specify any frequency you like in the modeline; but the driver will (silently) select the closest frequency which can be generated.Which Linux distro should I use? Whichever distro you're most familiar with. Setting up MythTV is non-trivial, so it helps if you know your way around.I hope that pre-empts a few questions (which I've answered previously but the answers are scattered throughout threads over the last five years.) Kat |
6th Jul 2011, 9:34 am | #7 | ||
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
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Kat |
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6th Jul 2011, 9:43 am | #8 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
Have you tried MeTV? I use it to test new Linux boxes + USB or PCI digital tuners as it's fast to install.
Do you need a Media TV application at all, simply to use media players or photo viewers if graphics is set to 504 x 378i etc? Presumably if the 405 works doing 625 i25 or 525 i30 on regular VGA is ensured? I presume one could create a boot menu that waited for 0, 1, 2, 3 etc and if nothing typed used last mode 0 = last VGA mode 1 = 405 2 = 440 3 = 525 4 = 625 5 = 819 Or something? Clark connect boots to a menu by default. |
6th Jul 2011, 10:21 am | #9 | ||||
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
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The MythTV system boots straight to the MythTV main menu. If I wanted to select multiple standards on one box, I'd knock up a means to select them via the IR remote. It only needs to restart X so it'd take less than a second to change standards. Kat |
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6th Jul 2011, 12:30 pm | #10 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
Cheers Kat, Very informative and does indeed spark some idea's.
Me and a friend who both have embedded programming experience are going to attempt to build a converter of our own in the near future, however with no (currently) working 405 set available, its all going to be academic in the short term. When I get time I will set up a Linux system, I have a Micro ATX P4 based motherboard and assosciated gubbins which will make the basis of the setup. Eventually it will hopefully become a 'dedicated' unit. I'm not against buying an aurora, I just prefer the challenge of building something myself Dave. |
6th Jul 2011, 4:14 pm | #11 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
Quite true. But some would see "Just buy an Aurora" through the same sort of perception filters that make a "Danger, Keep Out" sign on a barbed wire fence appear more like "Interesting Stuff Inside, Climb Me" .....
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6th Jul 2011, 4:30 pm | #12 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
Presumably Kat, if you just want to watch DVDs on 405 lines then you just need a Linux machine, one of the video cards you mentioned plus driver, the external VGA-405 hardware and the right modeline?
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7th Jul 2011, 1:21 am | #13 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
MythTV includes a DVD player...
But if you don't want to go to the trouble of setting up a dedicated MythTV system, you're likely stuck with players intended for use on general-purpose desktop systems, controlled from keyboard/mouse. KDE/Gnome/etc. are unusable when the only "monitor" attached is a 405-line TV. So what you'd probably want to do is set up a dual-head system; you can then direct the video output of DVD/media players to the 405-line head while having the desktop environment and player controls on a regular monitor. Or run the software (maybe a full KDE/etc. session) remotely from another machine. (I have a PowerBook G4 perched on the arm of the sofa and often run applications or full desktop sessions on other machines around the house while I'm watching TV.) Or set up the machine next to the sofa with a long video cable trailing round the room to the TV. I just find these sort of approaches rather clumsy; hence my preference for MythTV - it's designed for the ten foot user interface - you end up turning a PC into a dedicated DVD player, Freeview box, hard disk recorder etc. all rolled into one, controlled via a remote and on-screen menus on the TV. Once it's all set up it's great to be able to sit back on the sofa with the remote and drive the whole thing just like any modern system. Except that, instead of a big LCD hung on the wall, the set you're aiming the remote at could be a fifties console set with doors (and I think that's cool!) But if you don't mind the clutter and the inconvenience of having a general-purpose computer system with keyboard/mouse/monitor with a second card providing 405-line (etc.) output for DVD/etc. playback, I see no major reason why it couldn't be set up this way (barring problems with software expecting a 1:1 PAR producing a squashed/stretched display on the TV.) What it boils down to is - I use MythTV on a dedicated single-head setup without a keyboard/mouse/monitor via the IR remote which came with one of the DVB-T cards. I'm happy with this system, I haven't tried alternative approaches, nor have I much incentive to try them. I've worked out a bunch of modelines which produce various TV standards using two types of nVidia card I own and nVidia's binary drivers. They've been posted on this forum several times in the last five years. What you do with them is up to you. If you fancy turning a PC into a set-top box on steroids which will do obsolete standards and which has been confirmed to work fairly reliably over the last five years, use MythTV. If you want to try something else... I have no idea whether it'll work or not if I haven't tried it myself, so you're on your own... Kat |
7th Jul 2011, 9:01 am | #14 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
It sounds like MythTV is too good not to use!
And a desktop on a TV is barely useable. I have to squint enough as it is to see things |
7th Jul 2011, 9:30 am | #15 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
Need bigger screen Karen O
Actually I use DVBviewer on XP, full media solution inc Onscreen Display + Remote, Dual Satellite & Terrestrial Digital Tuners and full MHEG5 (no MHEG5 on any Linux other than commercial set-box). It's full 1920x1080@50p only output to the HDTV. Lives in a different room with HDMI & IR Remote via Cat5e cable and a USB extension for a compact USB DVD player under TV. But not free and no use for 405 line. However BBC and RTE interactive text work and full EPG of both. If you're able to configure Linux, then MythTV is the most supported and full feature solution on Linux, but MeTv is only a couple of minutes to setup to check your tuner card/USB stick works (MythTV uses all the same stuff, so if MeTv doesn't work with the cards/USB stick, Myth TV won't). Even on a 42" HDTV a regular desktop is no use as the viewing distance for TV is 1.2m to 3m (4' to 10') rather than 30cm to 40cm for working at a screen (reading distance). |
7th Jul 2011, 12:05 pm | #16 | ||
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
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And can we stay at least vaguely on-topic, please? Commercial software which runs on Windows and won't do obsolete standards anyway isn't exactly relevant... Kat |
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7th Jul 2011, 1:05 pm | #17 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
I'll freely admit that it does take quite a bit of setting up. But once it is set up, it's amusing to see the look on a visiting non-enthusiast's face when you fire up a fifties 405-line set or an 819-line set which never would have worked in the UK, sit back with the remote, scroll through 14 days of EPG, bring up the local weather, flick through a few Freeview channels, watch an episode of Doctor Who stored on the fileserver upstairs[1], then bung a DVD in...
It's why I'd recommend it over 'clunky' dual-head setups needing a monitor/keyboard/mouse; you end up with a vintage set doing everything a modern set plus PVR does (okay, apart from colour.) This is, IMHO, extremely cool. From 3rd March 2006, here's the thread which started this off; I was playing around with MythTV with a view to setting it up as our living room system. I was tweaking a modeline for RGB 625-line (to feed the SCART on our main set at the time) and thought, "hang on... I bet I could get 405 out of this" and the rest is, I guess, history (I'm amused to be reminded that I didn't own a vintage telly at the time and got a 405-line signal out of the thing without being able to watch it!) Kat [1] "The Idiot's Lantern" is highly recommended for demonstrating this set-up to visitors. |
21st Jul 2011, 12:41 pm | #18 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
Kat, i've been thinking, some laptops (I have some at my disposal) have a TV-out decoder built in, albeit at S-Vhs. Do you think this could be implemented? I'm not sure what chipset is used, some OLD laptops have a separate philips QFP chip on board which handled it, newer ones I *think* have mainly ATI based chipsets, which handle the video directly.
Dave. Last edited by Kat Manton; 21st Jul 2011 at 1:46 pm. Reason: OT post copied from 'Simple memory card player idea' thread |
21st Jul 2011, 1:17 pm | #19 |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
S-video, not S-VHS. Just ignore the C channel and only use the Y connection for Mono.
Going from VGA to composite isn't hard. I made an RGB VGA - SCART adaptor with one transistor and 2 resistors in mid 1990s and programmed the Trident ISA card in DOS to do 625 lines. Even on windows some of the Nvidia drivers will let you create custom timing that can include 405, 625 etc.. All the free linux video tools and more are also on Windows. If you are using a dedicated PC/Laptop it's worth getting to grip with Linux. If you want to quickly experiment there are plenty of the same stuff on Windows too, but XP better than Vista or Win7 due to driver lock down issues. Last edited by Kat Manton; 21st Jul 2011 at 1:48 pm. Reason: OT post copied from 'Simple memory card player idea' thread |
21st Jul 2011, 2:19 pm | #20 | |
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Re: 405-line o/p from Linux
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Cards (and presumably laptops) which have a TV output have a scaler/encoder. This accepts the output from the graphics chip at 800 x 600, 1024 x 768, progressive; whatever the LCD or VGA output is set to produce; scale it to PAL/NTSC resolution then encode to PAL/NTSC to produce composite video. (I may not be entirely correct, but that's the rough impression I got of how it works.) Reprogramming the scaler would involve:
IMHO this is non-trivial; I am not going to investigate any further, but don't let me stop you! Reprogramming the VGA output is relatively trivial once one knows how the pixel clock is derived from the crystal on the card. The X configuration file already provides a means by which non-standard timings can be generated. So there's no coding involved. (I also happen to prefer reprogramming the VGA timing; the PC is then only scaling DVD/Freeview/etc. once to the desired standard. If the TV output were usable, the software would scale to, say, 800 x 600 progressive then the hardware scaler would scale again to the desired TV resolution.) Kat |
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