Deaths by electrocution in domestic situations.

[MrBungle]

Split from this thread:-

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=134123


Some interesting statistics: http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org...ch/statistics/

[Station X]

What I'd like to know is why those electrocutions occurred and why safety devices such as earthing, MCB's, RCD's and fuses didn't prevent them.

Getting electrocuted whilst going about your daily business is different to taking the back off a vintage radio and delving inside.

[Station X]

Here's one report;-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-s...wales-26326960

Presumably being a lighting circuit no RCD was in circuit.

Here's another:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-14844903

[MrBungle]

Agreed. The document does state the following however:

Home or leisure electrocutions: 22

Work related electrocutions: 6

So total: 28 electrocutions.

That's pretty good really from the word perspective. It proves the regulations are working. Home and leisure I'd like to see more statistics on it. I suspect most of these were accidentally discovering legacy wiring and not using an RCD when mowing the lawn etc.

I grabbed some stats and processed them and the USA had aggregate 361 electrocutions a year (excluding intentional ones ).

So you're probably better off if you're not American

Edit: agree there was no RCD in circuit there but an RCD won't necessarily trip until the damage is done i.e. you have to become part of the circuit first. It's only a few mA through the chest in one whack and you're gone. The RCD stops the next idiot coming along and electrocuting themselves not the first one!

Edit: Just remembered this. Wonder if it would feature in the stats:

[stevehertz]

That's graphic's one heck of a thought..

[frankmcvey]

That's graphic's one heck of a thought..

Nae sympathy - he should've had one hand in his pocket!

[MrBungle]

Here is the source: http://www.likecool.com/30_Ways_to_S...Pic--Gear.html

Perhaps we need a 2010's version of the 1950's education for people. That'd solve a huge amount of problems.

[dave walsh]

In the two tragic domestic fatalities linked in by Graham, one appears to be a worn cable and the other a mistake during rewiring. Only one report seems involve a demand for "justice" but it seems unlikely that culpability will be established in either case. It does bring up though the "someone must be to blame" aspect of human nature already alluded to in other posts. Arguably there could be a much more direct evidential trail via advice given externally and maybe from a website but I agree that it's not satisfactory to simply withdraw help due to an overreaction to a perceived negative threat.

There have been a number of well argued technical, ethical and risk evaluation posts that are impressive in themselves but I will stick to my core observation. Don't rush in with a lot of detail assuming knowledge that may not be there and DO ask a few precautionary questions before fully engaging. If there is an evasive response or it becomes clear that the OP is more eager than understanding pull back! It's not the same as being rejecting. The Forum has a rule structure. Perhaps there should be one indicating that new posters are obliged to provide safety information. If members were uncomfortable with a more confrontational they could then simply direct the poster to the relevant "Safety" section-designed to protect everyone. This may be impracticable but worth thinking about.

It could start off with something like "We often get new members whose enthusiasm can lead to problems so please co-operate fully, in your own interests if you are seeking help". Apart from the safety issues this could perhaps slow down the pace and raise the level of overall communication as well. I agree that the Mods have shown a great deal of professionalism and understanding over this thread. The OP's often seem unconcerned while those trying to help are the worried "salt of the earth" to use a possibly technical term.

Perhaps I could illustrate, in a different sense, the PC/H+S vortex that can get us
into these dilemmas. A new set of Govt Regs for those people involved with children at risk came out in the early 80's. It was a bit trendy but a thorough piece of work and I certainly didn't mind the Dylan quotes heading up the chapters. With the onset of new PC [and I thought sometimes self-regarding] attitudes however, the rules for conducting new staff interviews were viewed as...that you could no longer ask "difficult" personal questions that might in fact be appropriate to anyone seeking to carry out that sort of work.
What the regs actually said was that you could ask more or less anything [that wasn't overtly offensive] as long as everyone interviewed was asked exactly the SAME questions-a VERY different interpretation!

Dave W

A little supposed knowledge caught from a third party is a dangerous thing, look at the proliferation of 'socket protectors' defeating the safety of the good old BS1363 socket. All we can do is say what is dangerous, how to minimise those dangers and help the best we can. Road fatalities are 100 time those of electrocution lets get this in perspective.

[Philips210]

Originally Posted by MrBungle

Edit: Just remembered this. Wonder if it would feature in the stats:

I wonder if that's a case of taking the P!

Symon.

[TonyDuell]

A somewhat personal perspective...

My late father died, I suspect as the result of over-doing it when building a garden shed. It was just too much for a man of his age. BUT I would not have wanted to try to stop him. The fact is that he loved woodwork, it was a lifetime hobby. And while I loved my father (of course), I feel it was better for him to carry on enjoying things than to give up and just spend the time sitting in a chair.

Now, I will admit I work on things that could be electrically dangerous. I work on switch-mode power supplies. On live-chassis radios. Even on simple linear PSUs there are mains-connected points on the primary side of the transformer. I like to think I have some knowledge and experience (the rest of you may be able to judge that from my posts). I do take care. I do unplug from the mains before working on anything if I can. The incommer in this house is a 30mA trip RCD that I do press the test button on every so often. Heck, I even turn off at the mains if I replace a light bulb on a 2-way switched light since I don't know it's off otherwise.

But I can make a mistake. Something could go wrong. The RCD could fail to trip. An isolating transformer could break down internally.

So perhaps I will end up (accidentally) electocuted. But surely it's better to take that minor risk than to never do the hobby that has become a lifelong interest for me. After all I have to die sometime....

[Craig Sawyers]

Alternatively

[Radio_Dave]

http://etci.ie/fatalfacts/index.php?...00&YearTo=2000

David

[stevehertz]

I don't know what others think, but I think there's a morbid preoccupation with stories about fatal or particularly nasty electric shocks ? Worse still is when they are of the type, "I hung on to 30,000V and lived" type of thing. It's glamourising a very dangerous event. Basically, who reckons they had the worst electric shock and lived - what's that about? How many times do we need to run this topic? How many of these stories do we need to regale to make a point? Because whatever that number is, over and above that is unnecessary, and bordering on titillation.

[MrBungle]

I think from a personal perspective I'm trying to gauge risk rather than enjoyment.

There are few if any reported cases of someone working on something electronic and receiving a fatal shock by the looks.

[Argus25]

Originally Posted by MrBungle

So you're probably better off if you're not American

Maybe not. If life wasn't stranger than fiction, the American TV show Mythbusters evaluated the notion (as shown in a variation in Mr Bungle's cartoon) of urinating on high voltage train tracks. They built a dummy "urinating punter" complete with current detecting circuits. No matter how they tried they couldn't get the urine steam to conduct and high speed photography indicated that was because it had broken up into segments before hitting the high voltage rail, so the myth was officially "busted". But one would wonder what might happen if the voltage was high enough to ionize the air gaps in the stream.

[emeritus]

There was a report in our local paper a few years ago of a dog being electrocuted by urinating over a broken illuminated traffic island bollard. I guess the short distance meant that the stream had been continuous.

[kellys_eye]

The fact that there are so many warnings and H&S 'interference' in all aspect of life simply means that any fatal event is either as a result of accident or ignorance.

You can't legislate for one of them! and the other is called an 'accident' for a reason.

As mentioned, the figures are remarkably low in consideration of other normal every-day activities and it's too easy to take the details out of context and conflate them to an issue that has no reasonable means of resolution.

That's just a posh way of saying 'we're flogging a dead horse with this'....

[peter_scott]

Originally Posted by MrBungle

Edit: Just remembered this. Wonder if it would feature in the stats:

I did actually witness such an event many years ago. Not a human but a dog having a wee against a broken Keep Left sign. It got a big surprise but lived to pee another day.

Peter

[broadgage]

Originally Posted by Philips210

I wonder if that's a case of taking the P!

I thought that talking about part P of the building regs was not allowed