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Vintage Amateur and Military Radio Amateur/military receivers and transmitters, morse, and any other related vintage comms equipment.

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Old 10th May 2017, 9:22 am   #1
trh01uk
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Default The future of the Pye Museum

Folks,

Pye's mobile radio business represents an important area of wireless technology in the UK. When I graduated from uni in 1977 I wanted to work in RF engineering - but I definitely didn't want to work for one of the military firms. Pye represented one of the few professional RF engineering companies then active in the UK (outside the military ones) - this was before the mobile phone revolution then started and changed things drastically. I worked there for 4 years before moving to one of the very few commercial bits of Racal.

I suggest it's appropriate to have a discussion about the importance of mobile radio technology to RF engineering in general. Pye did feed its expertise into the military world - notably in the Wireless Set No. 19 early in WWII. I am not sure how much expertise they had in the field prior to that set. The prototypes were knocked up in about 6 weeks - or so the tale goes - by Bill Pannell a young engineer (at that time - by the time I joined Pye he was an "elder statesman" of the firm).

Comments on the importance of mobile radio technology to the history of UK electronics development might well be picked up by those who knew Dave Hicks G8EPR, and who have access to Dave's brother, who will ultimately be responsible for the G8EPR Pye Museum. This may be a chance to provide some influence over what happens to it all.


Richard
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Old 11th May 2017, 7:17 am   #2
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

Well, I am disappointed that no-one on here apparently has anything to contribute on the topic. My question is not particularly about Dave Hick's or his particular collection of stuff - and more about whether the whole area of "private mobile radio" which sprang up after WWII is of any importance historically?

My own evaluation is that Pye was a particularly sleepy company, and when it eventually died out - it had only itself to blame for failing to innovate. When I joined in the mid-70s, I think it had been turning out the essentially the same radio for decades. Sure, it moved from all valve equipment, with rotary convertors or vibrator power packs to fully transistor and then transistor+IC sets - but it followed the technology rather than set the pace.

I only stayed in the company four years because I was given something interesting and innovative to do - namely introduce frequency synthesisers into an industry permanently wedded to quartz crystals. Indeed, the Pye group included a quart crystal company in the group - Cathodeon - which some may remember.

Not that I am singling out Pye in particular. Most of the companies in the field appear to have been pretty dead in the water too - Dymar, Cleartone, Marconi to name a few. Motorola was perhaps an exception - though I have no first hand knowledge of them. I do recall seeing in the late 70s, the first sets which had broadband stages in them requiring no tuning. They came up with sets that could cover the entire VHF band (148 - 174MHz) without needing tuning to a small sub-band. That tuning procedure was the bane of a service engineers life - every set Pye produced had to have its entire receiver front-end and transmitter strip tuned to the particular area of the band the set covered.

Innovation was perhaps evident when making very small sets - the walkie-talkies - much loved by the police, etc. I don't know whether Pye was responsible for driving forward the use of "radial" component layouts to replace the "axial" layouts. Both are now totally obsolete, now we are all surface mount, with much functionality hidden inside ICs. But at one time, standing components like resistors on end (i.e. at right angles to the PCB) - rather than laying them flat on the board - was a revolution. The space saving (i.e. reduced PCB real estate) was remarkable.

Richard
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Old 11th May 2017, 8:07 am   #3
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

I agree with the importance of mobile radio. For me it brings back memories of the Vellocette Silent LE used by the police in the 60's with the blue Pye radio on the back.

Not to mention the PF1? that was modded by radio amateurs. These were found at many radio rallies.
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Old 11th May 2017, 8:20 am   #4
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

Quite. We have no difficulty recognising the importance of the mobile phone - it has revolutionised the world. Its even more important in countries with no existing telephone infrastructure in terms of thousands of "last mile" copper, that we take for granted in the UK.

And what came before the mobile phone was private mobile radio. The trouble is that most of us didn't experience it, because we didn't work for one of the emergency services, and we (probably) weren't rich enough to drive around in a Bentley/Rolls-Royce with a phone fitted!

But amateurs have grown up on the throw-outs of the PMR industry. Everyone used to use that sort of radio to get on 2m or 4m or 70cm - until the Japs muscled in, of course.

Richard
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Old 11th May 2017, 8:42 am   #5
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

It says here http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/Labgear that Pye picked up Labgear in 1959. If this is true, then Pye was also associated with the production of amateur transmitters such as the LG300 and the LG50 (and the 'Top to Seven'?).
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Old 11th May 2017, 5:41 pm   #6
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

Yes, indeed, the Pye "empire" was pretty extensive. Even though I worked for Pye Telecom for four years, I only heard rumours about the other companies. I've mentioned Cathodeon, which made quartz crystals - that was some way out of Cambridge as I recall. They had their fingers in many "pies" - including broadcast radio, TV, and even records I believe. I think they also made some kit for the professional broadcasters as well. I think Newmarket Transistors was also a subsidiary - and they were just down the road too.

Pye also produced sets like the SSB125 and the SSB130, which were both HF SSB transceivers, which potentially could be used by amateurs - though they wouldn't like the crystal controlled aspects of these sets.

Coming back to the question I originally posed, its worth mentioning the Pye Telecom History site at http://www.pyetelecomhistory.org . I think that is a much better portrayal than the G8EPR museum managed - it gives a good picture of the development of various types of radio comms kit over the decades, and Pye's involvement in it. Though having said that, there are some examples of the very earliest Pye kit - such as the PTC102 dating from 1948 - which is in the G8EPR collection, and I think should be saved - possibly by donation to the Pye Telecom History group.

Richard

Last edited by trh01uk; 11th May 2017 at 5:44 pm. Reason: Additional text added at end
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Old 11th May 2017, 5:59 pm   #7
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

And while I am thinking of it, it may be worth recording that there are examples of the quartz crystal controlled VHF transceiver dating back before Pye entered the post-war commercial field with their kit.

I am thinking of sets like the TR1143, which was the first really viable VHF airborne radio. It had a predecessor, the TR1133, which I believe used a free running L-C oscillator in the receiver, while the later, TR1143 was crystal controlled in both the Rx and Tx. The TR1133 was first deployed in the Battle of Britain - alongside the HF TR9. Apparently the move from HF to VHF provided a huge improvement in the quality of voice comms. The TR1143 arrived around 1941/2 I think.

To my knowledge these sets are the earliest examples of the type of VHF receiver-transmitter design that Pye then carried on making for many decades after the war. Similar sets - just a bit later than the TR1143 would be the Burndept made CN348, and its successor the BE201. These were ground to air sets, deployed to allow ground troops to communicate with airborne forces.

Richard
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Old 11th May 2017, 6:00 pm   #8
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

There was a time (a golden era to some of us) in the late 60's/early 70's when the 2m band was choc-a-bloc with amateurs, a very large number of whom were using Pye Rangers, Cambridges, Vanguards etc. Often bought for next to nothing, they were a source of immense pleasure. It would be very sad for the lasting memorial to those radios to be lost. What can be done, sorry but I don't know!

B
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Old 11th May 2017, 6:44 pm   #9
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

It is unfortunate but I think there is a general apathy about history in general, and about particular niches in particular. I'm involved with the Tools & Trades History Society who are interested in hand tools and the trades that used them. We have just as much difficulty getting anyone involved, and that's from a membership of people who pay to join.

Getting anyone to make a positive contribution to the future of a Pye history resource will, I feel, be an uphill struggle. I was at a museum in Suffolk a year or two ago and they had a number of Pye sets, the area had a number of small Pye factories, but no-one that I spoke to knew much at all about the significance of Pye as a company.

I hope I'm wrong.
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Old 11th May 2017, 10:41 pm   #10
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

Richard,

its ironic isn't it, that history is a neglected subject in a **vintage** radio/TV forum! History is in fact discussed in passing - but attempts to work out what are the important turning points in the history of electronics is not something that many seem minded to engage with.

My own feeling about the Pye stuff is that not much of it is in fact very important. I am sure a few of the very early bits ought to be saved. If you look at the Pye Telecom history site, its clear that they have original photos of the kit - but I don't think they have actual original examples. The G8EPR collection at least has a PTC102 - apparently the first mobile radio they made after WWII. There can't be many of those still knocking about - I've never seen one myself.

But the rest is typical of the output of many commercial enterprises. They produce a new model - not because anyone is unhappy with the current model - but because they think they can sell a load more sets and convince the punters that what they have is out of date. Apart from shrinking in size over the years, and the introduction of new enabling technologies (like transistors) - the Pye designs stayed remarkably static over decades. At block diagram level - hardly anything changed!

Once you realise how few real innovations there are in any field, you can appreciate that there is very little point in having one of everything. That's strictly for the compulsive collectors. No responsible museum would ever entertain such an acquisitions policy.

Richard
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Old 12th May 2017, 7:27 am   #11
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

Quote:
Originally Posted by trh01uk View Post
its ironic isn't it, that history is a neglected subject in a **vintage** radio/TV forum!
History isn't neglected in those areas where there is someone on the forum with a passionate interest in that field. There just isn't always someone for every area on the forum. It's a hobby, not an obligation.

Some things like AVO valve testers and multimeters seem to have every detail preserved, and several people have extensive collections. The pre-war TV people seem to be tracking every individual set made. Other things may not be represented at all. If this is a value judgement, then it's a personal one for each individual. Lack of interest across the whole forum can either be a coincidence, or perhaps the reflection of some factor which gives low perceived desirability. There's no trace of a conspiracy

I wonder how an experiment could be devised to tell the difference.

For me, TV sets leave me cold and I avoid anything with a live chassis. These are personal preferences, and I respect the right of others to have different preferences.

David
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Old 14th May 2017, 11:43 am   #12
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

http://www.pyetelecomhistory.org/info/museum.html
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Old 14th May 2017, 8:02 pm   #13
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

I see that the website was last updated 28 November 2014 with a list of aims and objectives, one of which was to develop a list of people from whom to take oral history of the company, with a view to completing 50 interviews by the end of December 2014. No updates since. I'm not in any way being critical or showing disdain towards the laudable aims and objectives of those enthusiasts who got together in October 2013 to launch the project, but it does indicate just how difficult and onerous a task it is to get these initiative off the ground and to sustain the effort into the future.

I guess it's a question of 'watch this space'.
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Old 15th May 2017, 12:06 am   #14
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

The remains of Pye telecom, after having been part of Philips for several decades and then sold off, are still in business to this day as Simoco.

As I found out recently, the Indian branch of Pye is also trading under the name Simoco and manufactures LED-lighting as well as communication equipment.

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Old 15th May 2017, 8:03 pm   #15
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

That is only one part

Simoco was the management buy-out of Philips Telecom that then went broke.

An incarnation of Simoco carried on with analogue PMR/trunking initially and then developed DMR products

The Simoco name was also carried on by a local company in Indonesia and may still exist.

The "other" part became Sepura and continued to develop very successfully TETRA terminals. They were initially involved in infrastructure through a co-operation and later through acquisition. Until very recently Sepura was still in St Andrews Road in Cambridge in the old "Pye Limited" "wavy line" building

Sepura were bought by Hytera according to this last December

http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/busi...epura-12331729

There was a third spin-out company but I don't recall its name now.

I left just after the Simoco buyout after starting on a sponsored student engineer course in 1976

Fred

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Old 15th May 2017, 10:26 pm   #16
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

Yes, I guess PMR equipment is really just a "poor man's mobile phone"? Presumably they can only sell the kit in countries which cannot afford a mobile phone network.

It's somewhat surprising how whole technologies can simply disappear. Apparently not everywhere on the planet - but certainly in the UK.

Richard
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Old 16th May 2017, 12:41 am   #17
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

It was of it's time, like pagers. Still usable, but superseded. Paid my mortgage for a while!
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Old 16th May 2017, 5:54 pm   #18
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

I think your "death of PMR" is somewhat over stated!

Airports around the world could not function without a dedicated radio system, now usually TETRA or DMR, still some using analogue trunking.

Nor could security services

London buses rely on Trunking now and are looking to upgrade

Its only the smaller users who have migrated to mobile phones as their requirement is non-critical

PMR pretty well bought my house thanks to overseas projects

Fred
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Old 16th May 2017, 6:34 pm   #19
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

At the start of the thread, there was a comment about the future of The G8EPR Pye Museum.

I understand that this is the Late Dave Hicks' private collection and I am assuming this is not connected with the 'pyemuseum.org ' website.

I do believe that pyemuseum.org are involved with the Cambridge Museum of Technology and this article seems to back that up:

http://www.cambridgeindependent.co.u...gacy-1-4726119

The Museum is worth seeing and I'm certain when I visited 6 years ago, there was a small display of Pye domestic receivers and laboratory equipment. The volunteers told me that they were hoping to develop this further.

The museum website suggests that by March 2017, 60 former Pye employees have been interviewed for the Pye Oral History Project and Lottery Funding has been granted to help with the construction of a new exhibition space.

http://www.museumoftechnology.com/news/

No connection with the Museum, apart from enjoying a nice day out there some time ago.

Hope this info may be of interest.

SR
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Old 16th May 2017, 9:58 pm   #20
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Default Re: The future of the Pye Museum

I find myself holding back on this thread for many reasons.

I hope that the pyetelecom.org gap in history is just a blip - albeit a long one at about 3 years.
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