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Old 18th Nov 2015, 11:58 pm   #281
ORTF_&_Co
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Re: post 17

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heatercathodeshort View Post
(...) I may have mentioned this before but there is a really old 'X' in perfect condition on the roof of the 'Cafe Rouge' in Dorking High Street. This is the wrong side of Box Hill and the signal from AP must have been at the lower end.(...)
Hello,

Here two StreetView screen captures, which show that in 2015 this aerial is still in good place behind the roof of the 'Cafe Rouge', while its UHF companion has been hanging down useless for a long time...

Louis in France
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Old 19th Nov 2015, 12:38 am   #282
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

In west Cornwall, during tropo lifts, we would get strong clear TDF FM radio reception from Brest and Caen. The effect was less dramatic on band 1 but we would get a weak co channel signal from the F2 transmitter at Caen. This would cause slight background lines on our BBC1 405 line picture on ch B2 from North Hessary Tor and the extra lines would appear to make our 405 line picture sharper.
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Old 19th Nov 2015, 1:41 am   #283
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials in 2013

Re post 53

Quote:
Originally Posted by jhalphen View Post

(...) The Pre-War and up to 1951 441 line Paris transmitter used nearly the same frequencies as Alexandra Palace (from memory, 42 and 46 MHz) but this really dates back a lot.

The 441 line TX "conveniently" caught fire in 1951 (sabotaged?) to make way for 819 which was officially adopted in 1949.

The government had promised Parisians 441 service until 1958. When the TX was destroyed, it was never repaired and Paris viewers all had to go out and buy a new TV 7 years before the planned retirement date. (...)
Salut de Nantes, jhalphen !

In fact Eiffel Tower's 441 lines transmitter, that had been brought in service in 1937 like BBC's AP - but initially in 455 lines - was partly destroyed by a fire in the night of 3rd January, 1956 after having worked a long day and evening with the coverage of French General Elections ("élections législatives").

This transmitter was indeed already 20 years old, but its pre-war hardware was not as long-lasting as post-war equipments. Furthermore, using three different definitions in the periods 1937-1939 and 1943-1949 (455 then 441 and 450 lines until only 441 lines was eventually used) did not improve its condition.

Since the Franco-British Week in July 1952 (see pic 1 attachad), it was relaying the 819 lines national programme wity the help of a converter composed of a 819 lines monitor with a special CRT (on the left in the background of 2nd pic attached) and a 441 lines camera with a special shooting tube (on the right). It was then much more working than previously airing some studio live talks and old movies only.

It was estimated that repairing its destroyed part at the top of the tower was far too expensive in regard with the two remaining years allocated by the authorities as it was due to close down on 1st January, 1958.

Furthermore, the RTF was already planning to install another 819 lines transmitter for a future second network, so it was decided to grant financial facilities to the remaining estimated 500 or so owners of a 441 lines set, with a reduction on the TV-license and a subsidy to help them in purchasing a 819 lines receiver. TV-dealers were also invited to grant a discount on the price of a set purchased by a former 441 lines viewer.

It was said indeed, some years ago, that this fire was deliberate, but there is no proof about it. Later indeed, in the years 1959-1960 the RTF made some 819 lines tests on neighbouring channels to existing F-8A, but they were much disappointing and thus abandoned. Curiously, the RTF did not resort to now liberated band I, maybe because the Caen transmitter on channel F2-H (sharing the same frequencies) was too close to Eiffel tower's service area.

Meanwhile, the Stockholm Plan of 1961 granted new UHF channels to each European country, so an experimental UHF transmitter in band V (ch unknown) was installed on the small concrete tower of now demolished Buttes-Chaumont production centre, later replaced by a temporary 10 kW transmitter on channel 22 (System L) that began the second network's ('Deuxième Chaîne') first experimental programmes in 1963 from Eiffel Tower.

Of course, the huge band I vertical dipoles and 'H' aerials - that were fewer than their British counterparts - were all replaced by 819 lines band III models when abovementioned receivers replacements occured in 1956.

In the Seventies, a low power band I channel F4 (pol. H) frequency transposer was installed atop Montparnasse Tower, but it was not maintained after 819 lines closedown in 1983.

Here also a copy of my region's newspaper 'Ouest-France' on-line archive of 4th January 1956 explaining that 7 fire brigades had to fight the fire and, because it was by night, no lift was working and firemen had to climb all 300 meters stairs with their heavy extinguishers - as water could not climb up above the tower's first store only - and they spent two hours before the fire could be stopped.

Amitiés de France,
Louis
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Old 19th Nov 2015, 2:01 am   #284
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid tellies View Post
In west Cornwall, during tropo lifts, we would get strong clear TDF FM radio reception from Brest and Caen. The effect was less dramatic on band 1 but we would get a weak co channel signal from the F2 transmitter at Caen. This would cause slight background lines on our BBC1 405 line picture on ch B2 from North Hessary Tor and the extra lines would appear to make our 405 line picture sharper.
Before we installed the Band III aerial towards St-Nazaire, I had a 3 rods Yagi FM areial aimed towards Britain, from which I clearly received North Hessary Tor FM transmissions very often in the summer evenings on our old Philips FM receiver, whose FM band stopped at 100 MHz. The sound was very clear and there was rarely fading.

Maybe a 4 rods ch F2 vertically polarized aerial - that covered 41.25 - 52.4 MHz - would have received channels B1 and B2 from Crystal Palace, NHT and maybe Holme Moss. However, I had no 405 lines receiver and my mother would never have accepted a huge 4 rods low-band I vertical aerial on her precious old walls...
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Old 19th Nov 2015, 9:46 pm   #285
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Some old 405 lines aerials in Wales

1) Llandrindod Wells

Hello again,

Let's at last leave mon doux pays de France and come back to gorgeous UK.

With the help of famous StreetView, I have been wandering along the roads and in the streets of Llandrindod Wells and around, and I could find some interesting spots. I particularly appreciated the best pics now displayed with their cars' new cameras, that better reproduce the roofs and the TV aerials. Previous captures are still available by clicking on the left, on 'Street View' and date in the black rectangle under the street and city's names. These previous captures, not only show the differences since 2008 or 2009, but sometimes enable a better capture of the old TV aerials that interest you.

Curiously, the horizontally polarized aerials that used to receive local BBC/ITVrelays have gone away in Llandrindo Wells itself, where I could find nothing else than two Wenvoe channel 5 survivors, both distant from some dozens of yards only.

In Middleton Street, one is near Bradleys store in the norhern half of the street, the other one atop the HSBC building at the northern end of the street.

Here some pics.
On the third one that shows the HSBC building with its 4 rods aerial, you can see the Bradleys store with its antique pediment that hides the other aerial.

In next posts we'll visit Buyth Wells and Rhayader in this same part of Wales, where there are some interesting VHF relics.

Louis
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Old 20th Nov 2015, 1:05 pm   #286
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Louis,

For fringe aerial views in Wales then I wonder if the town Bala still has any? In the mid '80s there were quite a collection of 4 element Band I ones pointing to the distant BBC Holme Moss transmitter on channel B2. Bala also had a low powered ITA/IBA transmitter on channel B7 (transmitting HTV Wales).
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Old 21st Nov 2015, 10:36 pm   #287
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCG View Post
For fringe aerial views in Wales then I wonder if the town Bala still has any? In the mid '80s there were quite a collection of 4 element Band I ones pointing to the distant BBC Holme Moss transmitter on channel B2. Bala also had a low powered ITA/IBA transmitter on channel B7 (transmitting HTV Wales).
Dear SteveCG, here is what I could find for you in Bala with the help of StreetView.

Most of old 405 lines aerials have gone away, and I couldn't find any subsisting channel B7 one : all remaining ones are Band I vertical + Band III vertical aerials aimed approximatively towards East. That would lead me to think that they were either receiving Sutton BBC Coldfield and ITA/IBA Lichfield, or maybe BBC Holme Moss and ITA/IBA Winter Hill ? I am not an expert enough to give you here an undoubted answer. Maybe someone here could help us in this view ?

Subsisting band I aerials are either three rods models in the center of the city ('High Street, Aran Street), or 'X' aerials in the Western upper streets of Bala (Bro Eryl, Cae Gadlas). I did not find any 4 rods aerial you mention.

In High Street, the band I aerial atop Barclays Bank's building also includes a band III 5 rods twin aerials box.

I could not find any subsisting band III aerial aimed towards former Bala ch B7-V. Neither could I find any horizontally porarized band I aerial aimed towards former BBC Blaenpwlyf (ch B3) or Festiniog (ch B5) relay stations.

Here a first set of screen captures taken in Western upper street named Cae Gadlas and in a small attached deadlock :
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Old 21st Nov 2015, 10:43 pm   #288
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... and here two damaged aerials: a band I 'X' and its band III companion in neighbouring Bro Eryl street :
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Old 21st Nov 2015, 10:48 pm   #289
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

In High Street of Bala : the Barclays Bank and Craft Cymru buildings' old aerials :
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Old 21st Nov 2015, 10:52 pm   #290
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Last but not the least : a charming old house in Aran Street of Bala, with its band I three rods aerial still in good condition too.

I am totally unable to know if this aerial, like those in previous pictures sets, is aimed towards Home Moss or Sutton Coldfield... ?

Best regards,
Louis
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Old 22nd Nov 2015, 3:41 pm   #291
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Three element Band one aerial was made by a company called Telerection I believe.
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Old 25th Nov 2015, 4:43 pm   #292
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

All the Bala Band I aerials in posts 287 to 289 were also made by Telerection. They are a dipole - director design, that is the shorter (director) element arms are closer to the transmitter.

The dipole elements screwed into an insulated holder - the director elements screwed into a metal mount. note the small spacing between the dipole and director - unlike Antiference's Antex "X" design. I am confident that they point to Holme Moss.

Also on post 289 I reckon the Band III was also a Telerection. Almost certainly the Band III aerials were trying to receive Winter Hill ITA on channel 9. In Bala itself the Channel 7 signal was strong so probably this is why there are no explicit aerials for it. The V. pol UHF aerial in post 290 quite likely points to the Bala TV relay site.

I believe the reason Bala got its channel 7 HTV Wales relay was to do with a political desire for Welsh language TV in that area. - others may know better!
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Old 12th Dec 2015, 12:54 am   #293
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Some old 405 lines aerials in Wales (continued)

2) Buith Wells

While in Llandrindod Wells there seems to be only former vertical band I aerials towards Wenvoe and, maybe, Holme Moss, here in Buith Wells there are some of them too, but also some horizontal ones that used to receive Llandrindod Wells BBC and ITA/IBA relay stations.

First, the vertically polarized ones :

1st pic : West Road, 3 rods Band I-v aimed towards North, presumably Holme Moss

2nd pic : Garth Road, 4 rods Band I-v aimed towards East, maybe Sutton Coldfield ?

3rd to 5th pics : Castle Street, twin Band III-v aerials aimed towards North-East, maybe Winter Hill ?
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Old 12th Dec 2015, 1:05 am   #294
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Buith Wells (continued)

Here now, some combined bands I & III horizontal aerials that, I presume, used to catch Llandrindo Wells BBC (channel 1) and ITA/IBA (channel 9) relay stations :

1st pic : Broadway, half of the band I dipole being missing. Both band III reflectors too.

2nd and 3rd pics : Irfon Road, a beautiful survivor in its almost contemporary scenery.

4th pic : Park Road, 5 elements Band III-h aerial aimed towards North, presumably Llandrindod Wells ITA/IBA station. Maybe a band I-h fell from the upper part of the mast in the past.

Next steps : Bala, Rhayader and Talgarth.

Louis
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Old 12th Dec 2015, 1:10 pm   #295
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Re: Post no. 293

Pic no. 1 is a Telerection (missing its Delta matching rods)
Pic no. 2 is also a Telerection (complete with Delta matching rods)
Pic nos 3-5 is a Labgear double eight

Post no 294

Pic nos 2-4 I suspect is a Labgear combined missing the Band III resonator
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Old 12th Dec 2015, 10:37 pm   #296
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SteveCG : Wow ! I am stunned with such an ability to identify any British aerial !

Except one or two Portenseigne models, I would be totally unable to do so with our old French ones...

a) Caen Mont-Pincon ch F2-h (audio 41.25 - video 52.40 MHz) :

1) Bayeux : 8, D6 road

2) Bayeux : 40, rue Saint-Jean

3) Bayeux : Place de Gaulle (with an extra UHF towards local relay station)

b) Limoges Les Cars ch F2-h :

4) In the South-West of Les Cars transmitter (forgot to specify location in pic's name)
That type of model was very rare, I never saw one vertically polarized.

c) La Roche-Posay low-power relay ch F4-h (audio 54.40 - video 65.55 MHz) :

5) La Roche-Posay : 9, avenue des Fontaines
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Old 14th Dec 2015, 12:32 pm   #297
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

ORTF,

The French aerials are intruiging - seeing a UHF and Band I VHF combined (photo no. 1 of post no. 296) is something I've only ever seen before in a Dutch setting (The transmitter I think was called LOPIK - E4, perhaps some of our Dutch members can confirm please?).

The major UK aerial makers all had their little "trademarks" which helps identify them.

There are also a raft of 'contractor' designs that are truly 'anon' - even if you get your physical hands on one there are no markings - usually the elements just crumble at the mounting points (dissimilar metal corrosion)...
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 1:05 am   #298
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SteveCG you are right, the VHF 'NOS1' transmitter was indeed Lopik on ch E4-h

'NOS2' was on ch 27-H with a same ERP at 500 kW

See attached excerpts from WRTH 1959 and 1970 giving more details about Dutch transmitters

Also a pic of this former transmitter at Lopik in the Fifties and a close-up of its 'Superturnstyle' aerials, similar to those used by French Caen transmitter.

About combined band I + UHF aerials, these were rather common in France.

See my new avatar on the left : that band Iv+ UHF band IV combo was replaced some months ago only on our local nuns' convent, so they could eventually watch DVB-T band V networks...

Amitiés de France,
Louis
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Old 15th Dec 2015, 11:58 am   #299
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Louis,

About 30 or so years ago I lived to the East of the Malvern Hills and I was able to receive Lopik (on E4) quite regularly, also the French and Dutch speaking channels of Belgian TV on E8 and E10 all via tropo propagation. E4 was on a wideband Band I 'H' and the E8/E10 on a wideband Band III.

Your new avatar reminds me of a combined aerial that the UK firm J-Beam made. Combined VHF / UHF aerials were a rather late addition to the UK skyline. Indeed I would go so far as to say that it was in the North West of England in the Service Area of the Winter Hill Transmitter where you would find them the most. This was because Winter Hill which first carried ITA TV (405, V. Pol) on channel B9, then had BBC1 (405, V. Pol) added on channel B12 and BBC2 (625, H Pol) on UHF channel I62. This meant that a small single aerial could provide all the TV reception needs. Similarly in the East of England the Belmont Transmitter eventually carried 405 line ITA on B7 and BBC 1 on B13 - both V. Pol and BBC2 on H. Pol Group A UHF.

The aerial maker Antiference sold two special 'combined' versions for these transmitters.

However I'm not aware of any combined H. Pol only VHF/UHF designs in widescale use in the UK - unlike as you say - in France.
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Old 16th Dec 2015, 3:09 pm   #300
ORTF_&_Co
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nantes, France
Posts: 35
Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Here two pics of a combined medium to long-distance band I-v-band IV-h aerial near Conquereuil (Streetview address 35D42) about 60 kms in the north of Nantes.

Haute-Goulaine transmitter (Streetview address 43, rue de la Châtaigneraie), 15 km in the South-East of Nantes, is one of the very rare stations whose UHF has got a greater receiving aera than its VHF counterpart, even in band I.

So this combo associates a long-distance 4 rods band I-v aerial - with a single matching rod (while many other aerials use two matching rods) to a medium-distance 15 elements band IV-h aerial.

Here is a close-up so you can better watch the way the matching rod attached to the dipole.

Below are the remains of a more recent UHF band IV aerial that was very badly assembled : the upper part of its reflector grid is missing, but the worst is its poor small dipole, miserably hanging on the other side of the chimney...
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