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Old 28th Jul 2015, 10:27 am   #261
SteveCG
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Re post no. 260:

My suggestion is that the aerial is for ITA Membury on channel B12 (horiz) and the Band I part is for BBC Oxford on channel B2 (horiz).

Cambridge also had quite a few of these 'bent' designs, for the situation where the angle between ITA Sandy Heath on channel B6 (horiz) was sufficiently different from the BBC Cambridge also on channel B2 (horiz). In this case the band I dipole has an "S" shape (got by merely turning one of the bent elements through 180 degrees). Many were made by Labgear of Cambridge - who used a distinctive large Junction Box.

There were quite a few Labgear aerials in Hereford too - so it was not just a local affair.
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 10:53 am   #262
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

You're probably right about the TXes the antenna's pointing at; surprised they needed such a 'gainy' array to get the BIII signal from Membury though; perhaps the Ridgeway south of Wantage and down towards Lambourn was getting in the way?
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 11:10 am   #263
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Another odd vertically-polarised antenna sighted in Westbury (opposite Aldi): it's either a top-end-of-BI or a BII, but the design is rather odd - from what I can work out it looks like one end of the driven element is also used as the support-mast.
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 11:35 am   #264
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Re post 263:

Well I've never seen one like that before !

It reminds me of an early J-Beam (I think?) design for a three element design which did something like that with the central dipole and the mounting arrangement. I think there were adverts for it in Wireless World circa the late 40' early 50s. Perhaps others here can confirm the adverts?

As for relay aerials in Oxford - I came across an 8 element wide-band Band III J-Beam associated with a J-Beam Band I channel B2 'H' design on a college roof, I think for reasons of shadowing. There again, I saw double 6 Band III designs (horizontally mounted) pointing to Membury - however I didn't think the element lengths were correct, so it was probably a Lichfield or Croydon aerial 'turned in both direction and polarization. Next to one was a channel B2 dipole! (Little and Large ?)
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 11:44 am   #265
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

The J-beam design - could it have been something like this one [ shown on the excellent Wrights Aerials site] ??

http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/aerialp...ient/070.shtml


On the same site there's also an example of the BI/III combo with the BI elements in a S-shape: http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/aerialp...ient/068.shtml
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Old 28th Jul 2015, 11:52 am   #266
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Beckley was initially built in the early 60s to provide a BBC VHF relay for the Oxford area, but by the time it opened everybody had already invested in expensive fringe area equipment so it wasn't very popular and you see few surviving band I aerials aligned for it. There would have been much more interest in an ITV relay because reception really was difficult, but the ITA never bothered before UHF started from Beckley in 1968.

Some people did use Membury for ITV when it opened, depending on local reception conditions. Membury was intended to cover the Oxford area but I don't think coverage was as good as originally projected.
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Old 29th Jul 2015, 10:07 am   #267
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Re post no. 265:

Yes, G6Tanuki those are the aerials I was talking about in posts no. 261 and 264.

...except that the very short first director in the photo of combo is not "as sold". By its length I wonder if somebody has shortened it to resonate at Sandy Heath's later Group A UHF output??

Also the combo photo is not quite the same as the Oxford photo - in that the Oxford aerial has a Band III reflector and its junction box is perhaps not the same shape as that clearly shown in the Wright's aerials (by the way, yes, I agree, it is an excellent site) photo.

Paul, Beckley Band I Channel B2 gave quite usable pictures over in Malvern in the early '80s - provided you oriented the aerial to minimise Holme Moss co-channel interference.
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Old 30th Jul 2015, 10:19 am   #268
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

You have the lot here!
Diverted off the M25 yesterday through Oxshott village Surrey. They were all complete with downleads terminating through the window frame. John.
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Old 14th Aug 2015, 1:19 pm   #269
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Here's some spotted on a cycle ride around Brentwood today, BW1 in Wellesley Road, BW2 in the Ongar Road. I am not sure about BW3, which is on the chimney of a shop in the High Street (photo taken from the service road).
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Old 14th Aug 2015, 3:26 pm   #270
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

I reckon BW1 is a Belling & Lee (from the colour of the junction box cover).
BW2 ??
I think BW3 is a recent, 4 element, Band III, DAB aerial from Antiference. It would be using 1/2" diameter tubing compared to the 3/8" of earlier Band III Antiference designs. I like the "trumatch" dipole design...
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Old 26th Aug 2015, 12:53 pm   #271
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Spotted this nice group on the roof a house on the A23 Brighton Road, Purley on Monday last. Amazing how they survive intact. The ground is quite low here and heavy traffic passing the house, required quite an elaborate array considering the distance from the transmitters. John.
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Old 27th Sep 2015, 9:07 pm   #272
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

A work trip took me through Oxford Road in a Reading the other day; many houses and shops had 405 line aerials on the roofs, most of them in excellent condition.
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Old 13th Nov 2015, 8:23 pm   #273
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Hello, it's a long time I've not been back to this Forum, and I am discovering this very interesting thread about old VHF 405 lines aerials in your country. I am stunned by your very comprehensive knowledge of former models and even trademarks from the simple view - often almost blurry - of ramshackle survivors from the past, whose some of you can even identify the color of the junction box !

Here in France (bonjour jhalphen!) in Nantes (Southern Brittany) we had first 819 lines VHF on band I vertically polarized channel F4 (video 65.55 - audio 54.40 MHz) with 300 kW ERP. Most of the local receiving aerials were 2 or 3 rods "H", mostly by Portenseigne manufacturer. Long-distance and estate receiving models were mostly 4 rods aerials, even in Nantes itself, only 10 miles away from the TX.

In 1983, the TF1 VHF 819 lines network closed down and was replaced some months later by Pay-TV Canal Plus - with some unscrambled lunchtime and dinnertime programmes - on the new System L' VHF 625 lines SECAM channel L09 (video 206.75 - audio 214.75 MHz) vertically polarized with unchanged 300 kW ERP.

However, except for people who subscribed to Canal+ and people who built new houses, old band I aerials survived during a very long period in our region. In parallel, the sixth network, M6, suffered from a too high channel 65 in the UHF band, while all other networks occupied channels 21 to 29. Most of the UHF aerials in use were similar to your "Group A" model (channels 21-34 or 21-40) so very few people correctly watched - or even received - M6 in Nantes greater area.

The December 26, 1999 storm that devastated France, had worthy consequences on the aerials in our region : most of old flown away Band I/Band IV aerials had to be replaced by new Band III/Bands IV-V models, so now it is not so easy to find old band I models, except in small villages 30 or 40 miles away from Nantes.

Here some pics I made of old F4V aerials some years ago. They slightly differ from your 405 lines ones, in particular the "dipole+director" two rods aerial that was very much used in Nantes city : it saved much space atop buildings, along their chimneys.

Sorry this post is so long, but I really appreciate what you do in this thread. Such community attached to old TV aerials is quite impossible to find here, on the other side of the Channel...

Amitiés de France,
Louis
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Old 14th Nov 2015, 1:13 pm   #274
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Louis,

Thanks for the 'photos - it is interesting to see other 'takes' on aerial design.

I remember occasionally receiving Band I, Canal+ signals during the Sporadic E season - often noisy SECAM with jiggling images and wispy sibilant sound on the audio channel (I had a system L' TV then) due to the scrambling. Occasionally the transmissions reverted to 'clear' and fine sound and pictures could be seen. When the SECAM S/N got over a threshold it really reduced the visual noise level. Signals could be received on channels L2, L3 and L4.
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Old 15th Nov 2015, 2:04 am   #275
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Brilliant photos there Louis, combined VHF/UHF aerials didn't catch on in the UK, although one was marketed at the start of our 625-line transmissions for London.
Well remember receiving the 819-line transmissions on a 405-line set which appeared as two images side by side.
Excellent pictures from you all. Many thanks
Brian
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Old 15th Nov 2015, 4:03 pm   #276
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Very interesting pictures Louis. I would imagine that the design of some of those old VHF band 1 aerials would have been affected by the wider bandwidth requirements of your 819 line system. I think each of your 819 line channels required 12Mhz bandwidth as against our 5Mhz bandwidth for the 405 line system.
I remember when I lived in West Cornwall we could be watching BBC 1 TV on ch1 from Redruth but listening to TDF sound which, during some sporadic E openings, completely swamped out the BBC1 audio channel on 41.50Mhz.
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Old 15th Nov 2015, 11:35 pm   #277
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCG View Post
Louis,

Thanks for the 'photos - it is interesting to see other 'takes' on aerial design.
Hello SteveCG; indeed it is interesting to see the difference between both countries design of band I aerials in particular.

The "X" type was totally unknown here in France, and I believe it was a purely British specificity. On the other hand, band I was almost incidental in my country : only some 819 lines transmitters used it, as the network was mainly using band III :

ch F2 : Mont-Pincon (Caen), Les Riceys (Troyes), Les Cars (Limoges) all pol. H, except Serra di Pigno (Bastia) : pol.V

ch F4 : Haute-Goulaine (Nantes), Lomont (Besancon), Pic de Nore (Carcassonne) : all pol. V, except Mont-Lambert (Boulogne), Coti Chiavari (Ajaccio) and Nez de Beaumont (Serres) : pol. H

I personally believe the RTF (Radio-Television Francaise) engineers didn't like band I, and they felt forced by the Stockholm Plan to use it. The old pre-war 441 lines transmitter was an encumbrance with its separated audio and video cumbersome dipoles invading the tower's highest platform, while the 819 lines band III "SuperTurnstile" array was fiercely increasing the height of Eiffel Tower's top. See pic here :

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...6&d=1447626185

The 441 lines service area was very large indeed with a radius of about 100 miles, but it was severely handicaped by car and industrial interferences, and reception was also very hard to control, with even regular viewers in... Vichy, 196 miles in the South of Paris.

The first 819 lines band I transmitter brought to service on 14th July, 1956 only was... Caen, in order to thwart BBC Les Platons on air since October 1955 on ch B4-h . French Government indeed feared that people receiving other countries' TV would buy sets that could not later receive its 819 lines - dual-standards did not exist yet at that time, they appeared later in Belgium because of its 819 French vs 625 Flemish systems compromise. In 1953, RTF had hastily launched a temporary transmitter in Strasbourg because a local TV-dealer had shown the Queen's Coronation on German 625 lines TV-sets catching the newly opened relay near Baden-Baden !

Caen used horizontally polarized channel F2 (audio 41.25 - video 52.40 MHz) first radiated by large "Super Turnstile" aerials later replaced by large dual-dipoles radiating pannels. See pic here :

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...7&d=1447626185

Quote:
I remember occasionally receiving Band I, Canal+ signals during the Sporadic E season - often noisy SECAM with jiggling images and wispy sibilant sound on the audio channel (I had a system L' TV then) due to the scrambling.
Maybe will you be glad to see that type of old "Discret 11" encrypted programme. Here an old one, recorded in 1989. Now we get a black screen with a subtitle "Scrambled Programme", but the new owner of Canal Plus, Mr. Bolloré, plans to restore the old encryption because he thinks people would be more willing to subscribe when watching wriggly pictures than a blank screen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU2CggEePaU#t=11

Quote:
Occasionally the transmissions reverted to 'clear' and fine sound and pictures could be seen.
When Canal Plus started its scrambled programmes, there was a famous joke in France about the cheapest descrambler available in any kitchen, that the viewer had to keep in front of his face. Here a very convenient two-handles model :

http://eshop.e-dehillerin.fr/images/...1365091193.jpg

Quote:
When the SECAM S/N got over a threshold it really reduced the visual noise level. Signals could be received on channels L2, L3 and L4.
Whenever possible, former 819 lines band I main stations were replaced by SECAM band III transmitters (Caen, Troyes, Nantes, Limoges). But this was not possible near neighbouring countries, so Canal Plus had to maintain band I on Bastia (ch L2 pol. V), Besancon and Carcassonne (ch L3 both V), Serres and Ajaccio (ch L4 both H).

However, the Discret 11 decoders were very much disturbed by DX-TV interferences, so aerials dealers soon refused to install any band I material in these regions and replaced them by satellite equipment.

All transmitters, band I like band III, were progressively switched-of after the DSO between 2008 and 2010. Band III should be reallocated to T-DMB or DAB+ radio, but France is really in the dark as far as digital radio is concerned, and only some experiments are on their way in 3 or 4 cities (Paris, Lyons, Nantes, Marseilles I believe). There are however still hundreds of thousands band III aerials still in good condition on the roofs of France.

Here attached also three StreetView captures of (rare) old band I aerials in the city of Bayeux (Normandy) that catched Mont-Pincon 819 lines until 1983.

Amitiés de France,
Louis
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Old 16th Nov 2015, 1:11 am   #278
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Very interesting, thanks for posting..
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Old 16th Nov 2015, 2:19 am   #279
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid tellies View Post
Very interesting pictures Louis. I would imagine that the design of some of those old VHF band 1 aerials would have been affected by the wider bandwidth requirements of your 819 line system. I think each of your 819 line channels required 12Mhz bandwidth as against our 5Mhz bandwidth for the 405 line system.
You are quite right ! In fact, despite the wide bandwith, we got a good pic and a good sound quality, not only because the receiving aerials were designed for such a wide gap between both frequencies, but also because of the transmitters' high ERP : 250 kW for Caen and Limoges (ch F2-H), 300 kW for Nantes (ch F4-V) and even 450 kW for Rennes on band III ch F5-h.

You could notice that on some of our band I aerials in my previous posts' attachments, manufacturers placed a "strap" from the junction box along (roughly) the first third of each half-dipole. However the strap's endings were not connected to the dipole, they had rings with plastic coating inside to act as insulators (and maybe capacitors?)

Quote:
I remember when I lived in West Cornwall we could be watching BBC 1 TV on ch1 from Redruth but listening to TDF sound which, during some sporadic E openings, completely swamped out the BBC1 audio channel on 41.50Mhz.
As far as summer interferences are concerned, we in Nantes area had the misfortune to have our band I channel F4 vertically polarised like most of your main BBC1 transmitters ! Furthermore, our audio was... 54.40 MHz, which was an harmonic of the radio-amateurs and CB 27 MHz band ! If you had the extra misfortune to live near one of these guys, be sure it was a real nightmare trying to listen to the News while your neighbour was shouting in his "mike" : "Attention all stations ! Attention all stations ! Papa Tango Charlie 44 talking ! Is there someone "copying" me ?"... !

I perfectly remember a summer evening - maybe 1976, which was extremely hot in France. My parents and I were watching a choral singing very delicate church songs when sudenly the picture was invaded by a very thick sparkling, while the sound was covered by voices vociferating jokes in English with audience strong laughter, such as "Dad's Army" or "Allo! 'Allo!"... and our attic aerial was only 20 or 25 miles from our 300 KW ERP transmitter !

This was repeating so often that my father finally helped me to rise a 13 rods Band III aerial towards the 100 Watts low-power relay near Saint-Nazaire, 40 miles away. The picture was very snowy, the sound got much noise, but at least we could watch the ends of our programmes. Unfortunately, we were in the lower part of our village and my Mum categorically refused to put any aerial on her old manor's chimneys. I am quite sure that if she had accepted, the result would have been far better, but it was rather cumbersome :

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...2&d=1447636539

Some years later, I added a Yagi UHF aerial to catch the brand new networks Five (La Cinq) and Six (TV6), that were launched in St-Nazaire one year before Nantes. ERP power was 4kW, so we got acceptable colour pics and sound. Programmes were very mediocre otherwise : Berlusconi's TV-shows and non-stop videoclips... When Nantes finally started its 50 kW ERP transmitters, some people in the village could not receive them because of the church's tower. I guess the local aerials dealer had noticed my aerials for awhile, because there are still many people catching Saint-Nazaire instead of Nantes, even after the DSO.

Here two pics showing, with a same aerial, analog and digital reception of M6 (that replaced TV6 in 1987) by the same TV set in my village :

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...3&d=1447636559

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...4&d=1447636585

Time to go to bed now... have a nice week everyone, thank you very much for your kind and nice comments !

Amitiés de France,
Louis
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Old 16th Nov 2015, 11:54 am   #280
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

I too remember receiving F2 from Caen on a 405 line TV during a SpE opening in the early '80s The (doubled) picture was to be seen with the set switched to channel B2 and the sound heard with the set switched to channel B1. It brought home the sheer bandwidth of 819 TV !

Re post 279: The UK TV aerial maker J-Beam also had Band I / III combined designs that had short resonant rods connected to the band I dipole.

Also, Antiference and J-Beam both sold Band III / UHF combined aerials for those areas where Band III (405 line) was vertically polarised and the 'new' 625 line UHF was horizontally polarised. However as mentioned earlier, they did not become popular.
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