UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Television Standards Converters, Modulators etc

Notices

Television Standards Converters, Modulators etc Standards converters, modulators anything else for providing signals to vintage televisions.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 31st Mar 2006, 12:45 pm   #1
Kat Manton
Retired Dormant Member
 
Kat Manton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,700
Default Recording 405-line video on VHS

Hi,

I've wondered about recording 405-line video; now I'm able to generate it I've thought about it again and had a rummage through my collection of video recorders.

Since I recalled reading somewhere that older ones stood a better chance of working, I've selected two candidates, both standard-play, mono soundtrack, nothing fancy about them at all.:
  • Granada VHSVH2 (Hitachi VT8000E equivalent, I believe) top-loader, which needs new belts and might be in good order apart from that.
  • Sharp VC-381H front-loader which I think was working apart from the tuner.

Does anyone who's tried this have any advice on which machines work? Would my 'modern' Mitsubishi SP/LP Hi-Fi Stereo all-singing all dancing one be worth trying or am I right in thinking I'd be better off resurrecting one of the two older machines? (I even have a Toshiba Betamax machine somewhere as well, but I think that needed new heads.)

Regards, Kat
Kat Manton is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 12:54 pm   #2
mickjjo
Rest in Peace
 
mickjjo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dartford, Kent, UK.
Posts: 1,661
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Hi Kat, There was an earlier thread on this subject which may be helpful:- .

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...t=405+line+vhs

Regards, Mick.
mickjjo is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 1:12 pm   #3
Kat Manton
Retired Dormant Member
 
Kat Manton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,700
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Hi Mick,

Ah, excellent stuff; I forgot completely about the search facility. (Sometimes I think my mind is too highly trained... )Interesting reading. I think I'll order a belt kit for the Granada one, East London Components still list it at a mere £1.50.

Cheers, Kat
Kat Manton is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 1:15 pm   #4
Nickthedentist
Dekatron
 
Nickthedentist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 18,142
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Kat,

I have a VT-8300 in near mint condition if you ever need another one - free (except for carriage).

Be aware that the STK(?) regulator "chip" isn't particularly reliable, and that they're impossible to get hold of these days.

Keep up the good work,
Nick.
Nickthedentist is online now  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 1:16 pm   #5
Steve_P
Dekatron
 
Steve_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 6,646
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

There was an item in Television Magazine in 1985ish about this. If anyone's got it to hand, please post it! The item says it all... and in actual fact, shows that due to the reduced bandwidth on 405, the performance is in fact better!

Older VCRs are better.... Ferguson 3V22 thru 30, and others from this era, I used a Panasonic NV333 for ages! I wouldn't advise the use of the Mitsubishi. Too many features judging by the sound of it!

Mickjo has posted you to another thread but...

Granada/Hitachi videos - There's a reel idler which drives both spindles. It's on the top and it just clips in. You can still get spares for these...and they're fairly cheap.

Betamax Heads... Clean them thoroughly before you condemn them!

Steve P
__________________
If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?
Steve_P is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 3:18 pm   #6
Paul Stenning
Administrator
 
Paul Stenning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 9,147
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

There is a bit of info here http://www.bvws.org.uk/405alive/faq/workagain.html too - scroll down to the "Will any VHS recorder play and record 405-line tapes?" bit.
__________________

Paul Stenning
Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster
Paul Stenning is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 4:47 pm   #7
Roy
Hexode
 
Roy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 258
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_P
There was an item in Television Magazine in 1985ish about this. If anyone's got it to hand, please post it!
Steve P
Can't find anything from 1985, but there was a short article entitled "Recording 405-line Signals" in the October 1983 edition.

I can scan this to PDF if anyone is interested - provided Paul has no objections (copyright etc).
Roy is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 4:54 pm   #8
ppppenguin
Retired Dormant Member
 
ppppenguin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: North London, UK.
Posts: 6,168
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Very brief summary:

Older VHS machines usually work better since they don't know about the line scan rate.

Dropouts on the tape will look bad becuse the dropout compensator uses a 64us delay line to replace the bad line with the previous one. Lines on 405 are 99us long so you'll get part of a line replaced by another wrong part. So use decent tapes and look after them.

Since VHS has about 3MHz luminance bandwidth you will get a really nice sharp 405 line picture. Better than 625 which needs over 5MHz for full bandwidth.

If the machine has a manual switch to force it to monochrome, use it. You don't want the colour killer making daft decisions for you.

Don't agonise over it. Just try whatever VHS you have around and see how it works.
ppppenguin is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 6:36 pm   #9
Paul Stenning
Administrator
 
Paul Stenning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 9,147
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roy
I can scan this to PDF if anyone is interested - provided Paul has no objections (copyright etc).
I don't think anyone will be bothered about a single article from a magazine published over 20 years ago! Go ahead - it'll be interesting.
__________________

Paul Stenning
Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster
Paul Stenning is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 7:45 pm   #10
Heatercathodeshort
Dekatron
 
Heatercathodeshort's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING.
Posts: 9,154
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Hello Kat,
During the last weeks of 405 transmission I recorded many hours of 405 line programmes using a standard JVC/FERGUSON 3V29/30 series vcr with no modifications. The signals were recorded from a BUSH TV166 series [A640 chassis] that was about as good as you could get. The results are first class and give results equal to the original transmissions. I have attached a few pics that do not do justice due to the odd behaviour of digital cameras when taking pictures from television screens due to scanning 'clash'. They will give you some idea of the results you can expect. I would add that the last picture was taken from the screen of a PYE D16T [1946] and Moira Stewert from a 1937 HMV 900. Regards John.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Ekco T331 3.jpg
Views:	249
Size:	41.6 KB
ID:	3237   Click image for larger version

Name:	Ferguson 988T.JPG
Views:	280
Size:	73.8 KB
ID:	3238   Click image for larger version

Name:	MOIRA STEWART H.M.V. 900.JPG
Views:	338
Size:	30.1 KB
ID:	3239   Click image for larger version

Name:	Pye D16T 405 tape..JPG
Views:	271
Size:	35.4 KB
ID:	3240  
Heatercathodeshort is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 8:28 pm   #11
Roy
Hexode
 
Roy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Hertfordshire, UK
Posts: 258
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Article from Television magazine October 1983 attached.

I hope this is the one Steve was referring to.

Roy
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Recording405.pdf (419.5 KB, 226 views)
Roy is offline  
Old 31st Mar 2006, 9:48 pm   #12
Steve_P
Dekatron
 
Steve_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 6,646
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

That's the one! Thanks Roy!
__________________
If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?
Steve_P is offline  
Old 1st Apr 2006, 8:17 pm   #13
Kat Manton
Retired Dormant Member
 
Kat Manton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,700
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Hi,

Thanks for the tips and references, folks - it looks like I'm resurrecting the Granada/Hitachi machine (seems to be built like a tank and looks to be in good order apart from belts that have entered the 'goo' phase and are beyond boiling.)

ELC seem to have most of the bits I'm likely to need, including new heads at a tenner. I think resurrection of this one is viable. I'll get just a belt kit then see what else is wrong with it

Cheers, Kat
Kat Manton is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2006, 9:29 am   #14
oldeurope
Retired Dormant Member
 
oldeurope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Solingen, Germany
Posts: 727
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Hi Kat, use a vhs with a delay ccd in the drop out compensator.
You can easily change its clock frequency (free running oscillator is enough)
to make a doc compensation at 405.

Kind regards
Darius
oldeurope is offline  
Old 2nd Apr 2006, 10:15 am   #15
Nickthedentist
Dekatron
 
Nickthedentist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 18,142
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darius
Hi Kat, use a vhs with a delay ccd in the drop out compensator.
You can easily change its clock frequency (free running oscillator is enough)
to make a doc compensation at 405.

Kind regards
Darius
When would these date from, Darius? Can you suggest any models that we'd be likely to encounter here in the UK?

Nick.
Nickthedentist is online now  
Old 2nd Apr 2006, 12:02 pm   #16
oldeurope
Retired Dormant Member
 
oldeurope's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Solingen, Germany
Posts: 727
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickthedentist
When would these date from, Darius? Can you suggest any models that we'd be likely to encounter here in the UK?

Nick.
Hi Nick, I think from 1980 onwards. I don't know all the models. Open one
and look inside. If there isn't a glass delay line, your chances are good.
Be carefull not to get in confusion with the colour (PAL) delay line.

Kind regards
Darius
oldeurope is offline  
Old 15th Apr 2006, 11:45 pm   #17
Brigham
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Co. Durham, UK.
Posts: 1,157
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Hello,
What would we have to modify in order to record 405 on a disc format such as CD or DVD?

Brigham.
Brigham is offline  
Old 16th Apr 2006, 12:21 am   #18
Kat Manton
Retired Dormant Member
 
Kat Manton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,700
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigham
What would we have to modify in order to record 405 on a disc format such as CD or DVD?
The short answer is "a lot"... I'd doubt it'd be possible to do this with, say, a commercial stand-alone DVD recorder; as it's designed and programmed to capture, process, and encode frames of generally 525/NTSC and/or 625/PAL.

From what I've gathered, the only reason a 625-line VCR happens to work is whole fields are recorded on tape, in analogue form, complete with line-sync (am I correct here?) Since 405-line and 625-line have the same field-rate, the VCR is effectively oblivious to the line-standard you're feeding it..

With digital recording, the machine is using fast analogue-to-digital converters to digitise the picture, pixel-by-pixel; line-by-line at some line-standard related clock-rate; until complete frames are captured. These are then encoded (usually MPEG) then stored. These systems "know", and need to know, what standard you're feeding them. Reprogramming a closed-source commerical product is not a trivial exercise; and that's assuming there's some software or firmware in there to reprogram - some may well use dedicated hardware, and that's not going to be reprogrammable.

But, it can be done with a PC - It's being worked out, and it is possible. It'll take using Linux, so we have access to the source code. Armed with a copy of the datasheet for the device on the capture card, the device driver can be modified. Reprogram the device's master clock, various timings, number of lines and active lines etc; then we can capture 405-line composite video and do what we like with it including burning it to DVD or VCD, streaming it, or even converting it to another standard....

Regards, Kat
Kat Manton is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2006, 12:16 am   #19
Brigham
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Co. Durham, UK.
Posts: 1,157
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Hello,
Now I'm back on 405, I'm looking for a suitable VCR. I haven't the time or technical skill to resurrect something, so I wondered if anyone knew of a current model which will handle 405. There's one mentioned on the 405-alive FAQ:-
"I recently bought a new video recorder for domestic use, and discovered that it beats all the machines in my shack for clean reproduction of 405 signals, the ghost echo being almost unnoticable. The machine is called Videoplus Nicam model ZX601. I understand that the same set is also sold under the Philips label."

[Dave Hooper EI2HR]
......but I can't seem to find it in the shops. I bought an 'own brand' budget price machine from a supermarket, thinking it might be appallingly basic, and it won't touch 405 at all!
Regards,
Brigham.
Brigham is offline  
Old 20th Jun 2006, 6:28 pm   #20
Nickthedentist
Dekatron
 
Nickthedentist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 18,142
Default Re: Recording 405-line video on VHS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigham
Videoplus Nicam model ZX601.
It would help if they could tell you the MAKE - the details they've given are merely the model number and its two best features

Do they have a "PM" feature on that forum?

Nick
Nickthedentist is online now  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 2:19 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2024, Paul Stenning.