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Old 29th Jan 2023, 3:15 pm   #1
Dimitris97
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Default Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hello everyone!!
I acquired this philips tv early in January and after rewiring the set correctly after several botched repairs from the past, replacing every electrolytic and paper caps, i got to this picture

Click image for larger version

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voltages from the pcl82 (vertical output valve) are
1: -30v
2: 11v
3: i get very low voltage from the multimeter either dc or ac
6: 210v (used a spare multimeter for that)
7: 147v
9: 90v
i have tested every resistor around the vertical and i could only find that the 1M pot for the vertical height is actually a 2M pot, C114 is 70nF where the schematic calls for 56nF
Could this be a bad tube or something of the above?
Test card is actually a Nintendo which outputs to channel 3
Sound is also working perfectly

Last edited by Cobaltblue; 29th Jan 2023 at 3:23 pm. Reason: Please dont post RM info
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 12:43 am   #2
19Seventy7
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hi, welcome to the forum!

You say that the 1M pot is 2M and C114 is 70nF, is that still true or have you replaced them with the correct value? If you haven't I would replace them as my first port of call, and then see what I'm dealing with again afterwards, if there's still a fault. Sorry if I'm teaching you to suck eggs here.

Unfortunately I don't know this set so can't offer anymore help but hopefully someone else who does know will be along soon who could offer more guidance.

Good luck with it though, it's a very nice looking set.
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 7:48 am   #3
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hello to Greece!

The content of the picture is visible, it is not only a vertical thin line.
That points me to the vertical oszillator.
Please check the osc.-tube, too.

Good luck!
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Old 30th Jan 2023, 4:08 pm   #4
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Maybe scan coils/frame output transformer if the frame oscillator is working.

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Old 30th Jan 2023, 8:56 pm   #5
gallowfields
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

check the frame o/p transformer , usually when the frame coils go just leaves a single line [sometimes a wobbly one on some philips sets . presume you checked the feed resistor to the hieght pot ?
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Old 2nd Feb 2023, 1:00 am   #6
Dimitris97
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hello!!
I replaced the pot and the capacitor and the picture is pretty much the same.
Also voltages around the vertical oscillator are ok.
I can also hear the vertical running.
Probably have to search for a new pcl82...
Click image for larger version

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Old 5th Feb 2023, 6:13 pm   #7
1955APREN
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hi Dimitris
I have just looked at this thread. Could please try the following test
to try to find out if the fault is in the oscillator or the output stage. Connect a
.01 400v capacitor from pin4 on the valve base to the grid of the output section
( pin 3). Only do a very quick test in this condition. If the height atemps to give
more scan then the output stage should be working but will not be linear, if there is no change then the output stage is Not working.Looking at the voltage on the
PCL82 seem to be about right . The screen and cathode are about right indicating
that the valve is passing current although it might be slightly emission low but would not cause this fault.
Please inspect all you work in case a mistake as been made'
Hope this might help
Derrick
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Old 8th Feb 2023, 10:37 pm   #8
Dimitris97
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hello!
Thank you all for the answers to my thread😁
I did the test and the results are these:

https://youtu.be/HkXLyJzqWgw

At first i put the capacitor with the height pot in the middle and the picture grows larger, then i put the height pot for maximum height and when the capacitor is connected the picture rolls somehow...
Later in the video i change the vertical hold control in the front but it doesn't make any difference
what do you think its the problem here?
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Old 9th Feb 2023, 12:18 pm   #9
German Dalek
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hi,
Adjust the horizontal osc. to synchronize a picture.
What is your source, signal generator?
I had this, too, with a Philips many years ago.
Check all resistors in the vertical section!
One or more is high.
Good luck,
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Old 9th Feb 2023, 11:48 pm   #10
Dimitris97
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hello!
This is what happens when a signal is fed into it (an old Nintendo which outputs to channel 3)

https://youtube.com/shorts/HsJ0Cz5o2M8?feature=share

Height pot is at maximum.
I will check again the circuit for any errors.
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Old 14th Feb 2023, 9:37 pm   #11
1955APREN
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hi
Sorry that I did get back to you b4.The idea of connecting the capacitor
from one of the heater pins to the grid , was to see if the output stage would
respond in some to a 50c/s ( in you case possible 60c/s). The fact that it did open up a bit seems to indicate that the output stage is working..

I do not have circuit for this set , but some sets have another valve that
forms part of frame oscillator stage this might be just half of a ECC82.
Are you able to measure the voltage on the height control . please can you let us
know what this is , also if possible can you post a circuit digram of the frame
stage.
Kind regards
Derrick
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Old 26th Feb 2023, 12:03 am   #12
Dimitris97
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

H!i sorry for the late reply some family issues came along the way..
I found a good pcl82 (vertical output) but that didn't make any difference
checked the voltages around the height pot and they are 210v (B+), 163v, and 100v above the 1MΩ grounding resistor.
Click image for larger version

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Resistance from Pin 6 to 8 of the vertical output transformer (without anything connected there) is very low (2-3ohms), is that normal or does it have shorted turns?
Thank you all for the replies!!
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Old 7th Mar 2023, 11:15 pm   #13
1955APREN
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hi Sorry that I did not reply B4 , Thanks for suppling the circuit of frame stage.
please can you test the following items transformer s43/s44, c110, c109.
can you test the voltage on pin2 of the PCL84 . this is the anode of the triode
section of this valve.
If you have scope can you cheek wave forms .
Please report back
regards
Derrick
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Old 21st Mar 2023, 12:39 am   #14
Dimitris97
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hello again!

S43/S44 seem to be OK measuring ~230/130 ohms each.
Capacitors C110 and C109 are also OK.
Pin 2 of the PCL84 measures 70V as the diagram shows
Unfortunately I don't have a 'scope. 😕
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Old 22nd Mar 2023, 7:15 am   #15
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

This is an unusual Philips Continental design – NOT the British–made Dual Standard 210 chassis despite the similarity of model numbers!

One quick test the OP can do is to turn the Height control.VL to maximum and see if he can hear an audible buzz/rattle from the vertical output transformer – if there is, then the fault is almost certainly going to be failure of the little tiny n.t.c. thermistor (about 10 ohms cold – I believe the Mullard VA1005 was commonly used) – it might be difficult to find this as it's usually fitted somewhere within the windings of the field scan coils, however it's ends can often be seen as two thin resistor– type leads connected to two pins/tags on the scan–coil assembly – the scan coil wires themselves are made with "self–bonding wire" usually goldish–in colour and thin and flexible – there will be a wire like this from the coils going to a resistor–type wire on one tag, the other resistor–type wire will go to a tag/pin on its own along with the scan output lead from the rest of the chassis.

This thermistor, when you find it, can safely be shorted out as a quick test to see if it restores the scan!

If the thermistor is defective, you can possibly be able, if you're really, really careful, to dig it out and put a replacement of about 10 ohms cold in the approximate original position, otherwise the simplest answer is to short it out and then adjust the height control VL for correct scan when the set has thoroughly warmed up for an hour!

It's barely possible the feedback linearity control BH and the preset in series with it might be causing strange tricks in the grid circuit of the PCL82 pentode, but I would think problems here would cause gross non–linearity or a "trellis–work" effect of widely spaced scanning lines all down the screen!

The 250μ PCL82 pentode cathode bypass capacitor C118 isn't o/c is it? I'd also check the screen–grid bypass capacitor C117 as will – the scan power will be drastically reduced if these go o/c!

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Old 22nd Mar 2023, 7:37 am   #16
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

There's a Dutch Philips TV Fault Finding Book with a clearer copy of the OP's frame timebase circuit here in page 40 of this :–

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...c4nx6MFcO0gUih

. . .It has been OCR'd so you can try the Dutch fault finding notes on Google Translate for an English rendition!

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Old 22nd Mar 2023, 11:57 pm   #17
Dimitris97
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Thank you for the replies!!
Yes i can hear the loud buzzing of the vert output transformer when i increase the height control. I disassembled the yoke but i dont think theres a thermistor in there.
Here are some pictures
Click image for larger version

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What bugs me is that the picture from the videos I posted is very non linear and the raster without video appears to have a bright line on the top.
C117 and C118 are also ok
Resistance across scan coils measures 4 and 8 ohms.
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Old 31st Aug 2023, 9:16 am   #18
Dimitris97
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Hello! An update:
I checked all the waveforms going into the pcl82 and the vert output transformer and they all checked fine.

I had the television running for 10 minutes and doing some tests with the Nintendo and suddenly i had a full raster without doing anything to the set! I had it on for a solid 20 minutes and the deflection was steady. The next day i turned it on again but the raster was again squished vertically..i also think i heard some small arcing from the vertical output transformer
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Old 31st Aug 2023, 7:03 pm   #19
Maarten
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Default Re: Philips 17TD210A vertical size

Is there a VDR resistor on the vertical output transformer? They can fail.

Also, if something starts working after it's warmed up, suspect electrolytics.
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