“Manky thing” in HMV 2010 model

[PaulR]

I think that the cartridge is the first thing to suspect. If you don't mind some departure from originality there are red Chinese cartridges available on ebay very cheaply. I have never bought one but they have had good reviews on here. You will probably need to get a mounting bracket as well.

I bought a repro Ronette turn over cartridge a while ago and have been very pleased with it, but others have had bad experiences with them. One problem with them is that the moulding of the plastic mounting and turnover "flag" is very crude and makes mounting difficult. I managed to put the cartridge itself in the mounting bracket of an original Ronette cartridge and I find that it works very well. Do not be tempted to buy a NOS Ronette. I did this and it would not track at all, presumably because the rubbers inside had hardened after 40 odd years in a drawer. It did provide the bracket for the repro one, though.

Edit

The leads to the cartridge are stronger than they look. You shouldn't have any difficulty with them if you take care. If necessary gently prise them off using a small thin screwdriver between the cartridge and the terminal tag insulation.

[Notarfff]

Thanks for the tips !!

Tomorrow is cartridge day, I’d heard the ceramics ones are not so good? But I’ll check the Chinese ones you mention I must admit I’m hesitant to spend 70 quid or whatever on an original cartridge, what if I find it’s no better tha. The ones I have ?
Tricky ?

[Edward Huggins]

What makes you think you need to spend as much as £70 or so on a new cartridge? .

[Notarfff]

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

What makes you think you need to spend as much as £70 or so on a new cartridge? .

Oh, have I got that wrong? I googled and saw a few sites selling original ronette 105 and I’m sure they were around that region.

I’m keen on trying a go alternative, and see if it’s any good, but a lot of posts seem to not rate them? I don’t know whether this is Puritanism or not so I figured I’d buy one and see for myself ??

If you know where I can get an original please do let me know, I’d appreciate the tip.

Many thanks

[Station X]

Before you even think about buying a new cartridge do the buzz test as described in post #18.

[PaulR]

...and don't even think of spending £70 on a NOS Ronette. I think that the ones left are mono only and if NOS are very unlikely to be satisfactory due to deterioration whilst in storage for so long.

If you do an ebay search for "stereo ceramic cartridge" you will find the red ones for around £10. The only drawback is that they won't play 78 rpm records.

[Radio Wrangler]

The cartridges in old record players are usually piezo-electric ones.

Inside, the forces from the stylus bend a small crystal or ceramic piece. This material is chosen for the property of generating an electric field when deformed. Electrodes sense this field and pass a voltage to the amplifier.

Some crystal materials (Rochelle Salt) make quite a large voltage and got used in cheap record players where they could save the need for one of the stages of valve amplification. The snag is that these materials are hygroscopic... they absorb water from the air and turn into sludge over a period of years. Any NOS cartridges of this type have probably died in storage.

Ceramic materials are longer lived and though they give lower voltage output, they are better for driving the sort of loads that transistor amplifiers place on them. Their achilles heel is that rubber parts used in their suspensions eventually go hard. Some have lasted, some have not.

We are left with only the Chinese making piezo-electric cartridges for their low cost players. In general, the players are lousy, but the cartridges are OK and the 'red and black' ones have breathed life into many an old western-made player.

The other gotcha is an old one. Cartridges made in the era of mono record allow their styli to move in only one direction. Stereo needs two directions so the stylus moves in a complex way with up-down and side-to-side movement. Playing a stereo record with a mono cartridge tries to smooth out the groove!

If you want to play and not ruin stereo records, you need a stereo cartridge. For a while 'compatible' mono cartridges were made for mono players.

In the late sixties into the early seventies, the hifi industry shifted to magnetic cartridges. These need a lot more amplification, with a shaped frequency response. They are almost all made for turntable units a lot more delicate than the usual autochangers. With a good turntaable, you can go magnetic and add a small preamp module.

David

[Edward Huggins]

The red ones are as cheap as £1.36 inc. shipping from China. BUT they require a mount to be made up and are for microgroove records only.

If that HMV were mine, I would not faff about but go buy a NOS BSR SC11M or SC12M stereo cartridge - whilst they are still just available. They will easily fit the autochanger's tone arm and have a very good output match to the amplifier. Cost c. £35-00. Job done!

[Station X]

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

BUT they require a mount to be made up.

Not according to this thread:-

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=159306

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RECORD-PL...UAAOSwdJtdWnYV

[PaulR]

The ones I mentioned at around £10 include the mounting bracket.

[Edward Huggins]

Yes Graham you're quite correct, but they are £12.00 or so with Shipping and still will not have flipover LP/78 styli.

[Station X]

I wonder how many people play 78's on record players?

50 years ago, in the days when my friends and I had record players, as soon as the supplied LP/78 stylus wore out you replaced it with a double sided LP one.

[PaulR]

Same here and replacement flip over styli with a 78 side are a lot rarer than double LP ones. I am grateful that they are still available though. Although I can play them on the Lenco GL 75 it is a pain getting up and down to change them so an autochanger is invaluable.

[Notarfff]

Originally Posted by Station X

Before you even think about buying a new cartridge do the buzz test as described in post #18.

Yep, just done that now, of the four terminals at the rear of the cartridge, I get a loud buzz on only one of them ?!

[Notarfff]

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

The cartridges in old record players are usually piezo-electric ones.

Inside, the forces from the stylus bend a small crystal or ceramic piece. This material is chosen for the property of generating an electric field when deformed. Electrodes sense this field and pass a voltage to the amplifier.

Some crystal materials (Rochelle Salt) make quite a large voltage and got used in cheap record players where they could save the need for one of the stages of valve amplification. The snag is that these materials are hygroscopic... they absorb water from the air and turn into sludge over a period of years. Any NOS cartridges of this type have probably died in storage.

Ceramic materials are longer lived and though they give lower voltage output, they are better for driving the sort of loads that transistor amplifiers place on them. Their achilles heel is that rubber parts used in their suspensions eventually go hard. Some have lasted, some have not.

We are left with only the Chinese making piezo-electric cartridges for their low cost players. In general, the players are lousy, but the cartridges are OK and the 'red and black' ones have breathed life into many an old western-made player.

The other gotcha is an old one. Cartridges made in the era of mono record allow their styli to move in only one direction. Stereo needs two directions so the stylus moves in a complex way with up-down and side-to-side movement. Playing a stereo record with a mono cartridge tries to smooth out the groove!

If you want to play and not ruin stereo records, you need a stereo cartridge. For a while 'compatible' mono cartridges were made for mono players.

In the late sixties into the early seventies, the hifi industry shifted to magnetic cartridges. These need a lot more amplification, with a shaped frequency response. They are almost all made for turntable units a lot more delicate than the usual autochangers. With a good turntaable, you can go magnetic and add a small preamp module.

David

Thanks that’s helped my understanding a lot

[Notarfff]

Originally Posted by PaulR

...and don't even think of spending £70 on a NOS Ronette. I think that the ones left are mono only and if NOS are very unlikely to be satisfactory due to deterioration whilst in storage for so long.

If you do an ebay search for "stereo ceramic cartridge" you will find the red ones for around £10. The only drawback is that they won't play 78 rpm records.

Ah, ok, I guess for that price I can just play 33/45 , my goal was to collect some rarer 78s, as I do like vintage style music (jazz orchestra type stuff) although rare as hens teeth

[Notarfff]

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

The red ones are as cheap as £1.36 inc. shipping from China. BUT they require a mount to be made up and are for microgroove records only.

If that HMV were mine, I would not faff about but go buy a NOS BSR SC11M or SC12M stereo cartridge - whilst they are still just available. They will easily fit the autochanger's tone arm and have a very good output match to the amplifier. Cost c. £35-00. Job done!

I’m very tempted, very. And I like the 78 option, I do have an aspiration to collect some 78s, which is one reason why I wanted the player really.
I think I may bite the bullet and go for it
I have done the “buzz” test, and , whilst I can’t quite believe it, i seem t be getting zilch from three of the four outputs from the cartridge.

[Station X]

Originally Posted by Notarfff

Yep, just done that now, of the four terminals at the rear of the cartridge, I get a loud buzz on only one of them ?!

That suggests that one channel of the amplifier has failed.

Did you say earlier though that you could get sound from both the left and right hand speakers?

You could repeat the buzz test at the tag strip under the deck just in case there's a broken wire leading from the cartridge to the amp.

I note that each channel of the amp has its own preset balance control. they might have been messed with.

[Radio Wrangler]

2 of the four pins of a stereo cartridge are earth connections. They won't give a buzz.

The other two should, though. One giving a buzz on the left speaker, the other on the right.

So if you've given each of the four a poke, it looks like one side has an amplifier problem, a broken wire, or maybe a dirty switch.

David

[Notarfff]

Originally Posted by Station X

That suggests that one channel of the amplifier has failed.

Did you say earlier though that you could get sound from both the left and right hand speakers?

You could repeat the buzz test at the tag strip under the deck just in case there's a broken wire leading from the cartridge to the amp.

I note that each channel of the amp has its own preset balance control. they might have been messed with.

Yes,I can get left/right when on MONO , but only left when on STEREO ? I’m definitely playing a stereo record.
I’ll repeat on the strip under the desk which I noticed the other day, I’m beginning to kind of realise how this works, as I can see which wires lead to which components, in a simplistic way.
I do seem to have upset the auto load function, through fiddling, so it won’t move the tone arm across to the vinyl for me. Another thing to fettle tomorrow.
Wife is loving this record player !