Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

TonyDuell · 27th Nov 2019, 10:11 am

I've just bought a Uher Report S (the old one, no ICs, centrifugally goverened motor) It came with the official mains adapter which either slots into the battery compartment or connects via a lead ending in DIN plugs.

Anyway, I opened up the adapter and saw the attached. That white board between the mains transformer and the battery charger components looks like asbestos to me. But why? It's a plastic case so it can't get that hot. I fancy replacing it by a bit of fibreglass (PCB substrate) or similar.

ajgriff · 27th Nov 2019, 11:04 am

Certainly looks like asbestos and the Uher dates from an era when it would have still been in general use. Either leave and don't disturb or dispose of safely. The latter would be my choice for what it's worth.

Alan

TonyDuell · 27th Nov 2019, 11:42 am

I wonder why they used asbestos, given that there should be nothing remotely warm in that area.

I feel that it should be replaced. I'll remove it out of doors and clean up any remaining dust (not by blowing it out!). Do I need to take any more precautions, given that it's a small piece and I worked on off-topic things with asbestos-based friction linings in the past?

ajgriff · 27th Nov 2019, 12:52 pm

A decent mask is worthwhile until everything is safely bagged. Can't do much about past brake lining/pad work unfortunately.

I wonder if the asbestos was used because of concern over the flammable vibration deadening foam around the transformer in the event of a fault condition causing components to overheat?

Alan

cheerfulcharlie · 27th Nov 2019, 1:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by TonyDuell

I wonder why they used asbestos, given that there should be nothing remotely warm in that area.

I feel that it should be replaced. I'll remove it out of doors and clean up any remaining dust (not by blowing it out!). Do I need to take any more precautions, given that it's a small piece and I worked on off-topic things with asbestos-based friction linings in the past?

Odd they used asbestos as being one of the best fire barriers there ever was(as you say) why would they need it here? The other thing of course IIRC it was very cheap.
Apparently it was the blue asbestos (not actually that blue but had a hint IIRC) that was the most health concerning..this looks like the run of the mill grey stuff.
I suppose you could dip it in a thin veneer of epoxy resin to seal off flaking ...or wrap in gaffer tape if you are going to dispose of it ...not sure where you would take it?

.

paulsherwin · 27th Nov 2019, 1:16 pm

I would be tempted to pop it in a glass jar full of water then put it out with the landfill / incinerator rubbish. The trouble with disposing of it 'properly' is you'll have to go through all the hazardous waste procedures, which are very inflexible.

Alternatively just reassemble the power supply and pretend you haven't noticed it.

ajgriff · 27th Nov 2019, 1:27 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheerfulcharlie

Apparently it was the blue asbestos (not actually that blue but had a hint IIRC) that was the most health concerning..this looks like the run of the mill grey stuff.

This is something of a myth. The most widely used form of asbestos was chrysotile (white asbestos) which has now been shown to be the main cause of pleural mesothelioma (currently there are over 2,000 new cases a year in the UK). This is a type of cancer that you really, really do not want to develop. It is highly likely that the piece of asbestos under consideration here is chrysotile.

Alan

dominicbeesley · 27th Nov 2019, 2:01 pm

It's worth looking on your council website. We have a _lot_ of asbestos round here and the council are quite helpful. The last time I accidentally took an old flue pipe in a bag of rubble to the tip and it was spotted. All I had to do was double bag it and drop it off at the main tip.

IMHO putting it in landfill is really quite irresponsible.

D

turretslug · 27th Nov 2019, 2:58 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

I would be tempted to pop it in a glass jar full of water

And if you have any PVA to hand, a bit of that in the water will help to seal the fibres. Leave it for a few hours.

It's all very well for folk to say, "Oh, it's only a little scrap, just chuck it in the general waste"- but for those who deal with our rubbish using equipment like compacters or shredders "just a little bit" of dust every day from irresponsible disposal adds up to a lot of exposure. Hence sealing it for the sake of those further down the line.

Heatercathodeshort · 27th Nov 2019, 3:03 pm

is that original? It just looks like a bit of a bodge but maybe not. John.

TonyDuell · 27th Nov 2019, 3:14 pm

I shall replace it. There's no need for hazards (while I do not believe in never taking risks or never doing anything that might be dangerous, I do believe you should remove unnecessary risks). A bit of fibreglass PCB substrate would be a suitable replacement I think.

I would be surprised if it was chosen for cost reasons. The rest of the machine is very solid and somewhat over-engineered. I can't believe they saved a few pence here.

I can easily seal it between gaffer tape or similar. Is the 'PVA' you refer to the wood glue of that substance? I probably have that, if not I can get some. To be fair, I suspect the exposure to me will be a lot less than when I was repairing my late father's brakes and clutch....

The problem with disposing of it is that the local tip will not allow pedestrians, and I do not drive. But I will not just put it in the bin.

paulsherwin · 27th Nov 2019, 3:18 pm

PVA = 'White glue', 'wood glue', 'craft glue', all basically the same stuff. You can dilute it with water to make it easier to brush on. Poundland sell big bottles of the stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_acetate

OldTechFan96 · 27th Nov 2019, 3:51 pm

In light of this, would not be worth having a dedicated 'sticky' thread about identifying asbestos in vintage equipment? I think this comes up enough to warrant one place to discuss best practice.

The Philpott · 27th Nov 2019, 4:13 pm

Food for thought in post No.7- i see that a paper was written in 1996 discussing this, which said the opposite of what i had believed up until now about serpentine chrysotile.

If you research/contact your local council waste disposal team they may have an arrangement for a Biffa man-in-a-van specialist to pick it up from your door provided it is double bagged and labelled. They did this for me and there was no charge (but having said that the temptation is to put it to one side until you have enough to justify collection- it wasn't a facility i wanted to regularly take advantage of in case they withdrew it.)

Dave

turretslug · 27th Nov 2019, 5:11 pm

Too many vested interests including newspaper proprietors with big investments in asbestos mining and other bigwigs did their best to suppress and pooh-pooh the health concerns for too many decades (apparently even the Romans recognised that slaves who worked around asbestos deposits were unusually short-lived) and as mentioned mesothelioma and other asbestos afflictions are insidious and very unpleasant. It doesn't take much effort to use sensible precautions.

I'm a bit taken aback at the general presentation of the insides of that PSU from someone like Uher, but maybe I shouldn't be- having worked with Kudelski (Nagra) 3 and 4 machines, even their (inevitably expensive) "brick" mains adaptors had an element of "yuk, put the lid back on quick!" about them. When I prototyped or did one-off PSUs to go with normally-DC appliances, I liked to make things sensibly compact, but not ridiculously so as to compromise clearances or ruggedness in the way that some commercial designs are.

cheerfulcharlie · 27th Nov 2019, 5:29 pm

Another solution is to just bag the whole thing up, get rid of it, and chuck it ..somewhere responsibly.
Life is too short already to play health Russian Roulette with some cruddy old decaying bit of kit.

Maarten · 27th Nov 2019, 6:36 pm

The asbestos looks a bit as if it wasn't there originally.

Techman · 27th Nov 2019, 6:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maarten

The asbestos looks a bit as if it wasn't there originally.

That's exactly what I thought when I first saw it earlier today.

It's perfect (damp) weather at the moment to take it outside and remove the offending piece, then bag and bin - job done!

TonyDuell · 27th Nov 2019, 6:59 pm

The power supply had been opened before I got it (there are holes in the label over the 4 screws) so I can't be sure anything is original. But if it was added, why was it added?

Alas the service information I have gives the circuit for the power supply but not a parts list or exploded diagram so I can't be sure what should be there.

TonyDuell · 27th Nov 2019, 7:02 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheerfulcharlie

Another solution is to just bag the whole thing up, get rid of it, and chuck it ..somewhere responsibly.
Life is too short already to play health Russian Roulette with some cruddy old decaying bit of kit.

Try telling that to the people here who repair Bush DAC90s. Or any number of other radios with asbestos washers in the dropping resistor mountings. Or..

I am pretty sure also that provided I am not totally stupid that the risks from removed that bit of asbestos are rather less than the risks from, say, crossing the roads for a week. You have todie of something and to be honest I'd rather be doing something I enjoy in the meantime. Even if it means a shorter life.

27th Nov 2019, 10:11 am	#1
TonyDuell Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK. Posts: 5,213	Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? I've just bought a Uher Report S (the old one, no ICs, centrifugally goverened motor) It came with the official mains adapter which either slots into the battery compartment or connects via a lead ending in DIN plugs. Anyway, I opened up the adapter and saw the attached. That white board between the mains transformer and the battery charger components looks like asbestos to me. But why? It's a plastic case so it can't get that hot. I fancy replacing it by a bit of fibreglass (PCB substrate) or similar. Attached Thumbnails

27th Nov 2019, 11:04 am	#2
ajgriff Nonode Join Date: May 2004 Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,587	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? Certainly looks like asbestos and the Uher dates from an era when it would have still been in general use. Either leave and don't disturb or dispose of safely. The latter would be my choice for what it's worth. Alan

27th Nov 2019, 11:42 am	#3
TonyDuell Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK. Posts: 5,213	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? I wonder why they used asbestos, given that there should be nothing remotely warm in that area. I feel that it should be replaced. I'll remove it out of doors and clean up any remaining dust (not by blowing it out!). Do I need to take any more precautions, given that it's a small piece and I worked on off-topic things with asbestos-based friction linings in the past?

27th Nov 2019, 12:52 pm	#4
ajgriff Nonode Join Date: May 2004 Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,587	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? A decent mask is worthwhile until everything is safely bagged. Can't do much about past brake lining/pad work unfortunately. I wonder if the asbestos was used because of concern over the flammable vibration deadening foam around the transformer in the event of a fault condition causing components to overheat? Alan

27th Nov 2019, 1:16 pm	#6
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,959	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? I would be tempted to pop it in a glass jar full of water then put it out with the landfill / incinerator rubbish. The trouble with disposing of it 'properly' is you'll have to go through all the hazardous waste procedures, which are very inflexible. Alternatively just reassemble the power supply and pretend you haven't noticed it.

27th Nov 2019, 2:01 pm	#8
dominicbeesley Octode Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Hebden Bridge, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 1,885	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? It's worth looking on your council website. We have a _lot_ of asbestos round here and the council are quite helpful. The last time I accidentally took an old flue pipe in a bag of rubble to the tip and it was spotted. All I had to do was double bag it and drop it off at the main tip. IMHO putting it in landfill is really quite irresponsible. D

27th Nov 2019, 3:03 pm	#10
Heatercathodeshort Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING. Posts: 9,147	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? is that original? It just looks like a bit of a bodge but maybe not. John.

27th Nov 2019, 3:14 pm	#11
TonyDuell Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK. Posts: 5,213	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? I shall replace it. There's no need for hazards (while I do not believe in never taking risks or never doing anything that might be dangerous, I do believe you should remove unnecessary risks). A bit of fibreglass PCB substrate would be a suitable replacement I think. I would be surprised if it was chosen for cost reasons. The rest of the machine is very solid and somewhat over-engineered. I can't believe they saved a few pence here. I can easily seal it between gaffer tape or similar. Is the 'PVA' you refer to the wood glue of that substance? I probably have that, if not I can get some. To be fair, I suspect the exposure to me will be a lot less than when I was repairing my late father's brakes and clutch.... The problem with disposing of it is that the local tip will not allow pedestrians, and I do not drive. But I will not just put it in the bin.

27th Nov 2019, 3:18 pm	#12
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,959	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? PVA = 'White glue', 'wood glue', 'craft glue', all basically the same stuff. You can dilute it with water to make it easier to brush on. Poundland sell big bottles of the stuff. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_acetate

27th Nov 2019, 3:51 pm	#13
OldTechFan96 Octode Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 1,186	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? In light of this, would not be worth having a dedicated 'sticky' thread about identifying asbestos in vintage equipment? I think this comes up enough to warrant one place to discuss best practice.

27th Nov 2019, 4:13 pm	#14
The Philpott Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2016 Location: Colchester, Essex, UK. Posts: 4,107	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? Food for thought in post No.7- i see that a paper was written in 1996 discussing this, which said the opposite of what i had believed up until now about serpentine chrysotile. If you research/contact your local council waste disposal team they may have an arrangement for a Biffa man-in-a-van specialist to pick it up from your door provided it is double bagged and labelled. They did this for me and there was no charge (but having said that the temptation is to put it to one side until you have enough to justify collection- it wasn't a facility i wanted to regularly take advantage of in case they withdrew it.) Dave

27th Nov 2019, 5:11 pm	#15
turretslug Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Surrey, UK. Posts: 4,397	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? Too many vested interests including newspaper proprietors with big investments in asbestos mining and other bigwigs did their best to suppress and pooh-pooh the health concerns for too many decades (apparently even the Romans recognised that slaves who worked around asbestos deposits were unusually short-lived) and as mentioned mesothelioma and other asbestos afflictions are insidious and very unpleasant. It doesn't take much effort to use sensible precautions. I'm a bit taken aback at the general presentation of the insides of that PSU from someone like Uher, but maybe I shouldn't be- having worked with Kudelski (Nagra) 3 and 4 machines, even their (inevitably expensive) "brick" mains adaptors had an element of "yuk, put the lid back on quick!" about them. When I prototyped or did one-off PSUs to go with normally-DC appliances, I liked to make things sensibly compact, but not ridiculously so as to compromise clearances or ruggedness in the way that some commercial designs are.

27th Nov 2019, 5:29 pm	#16
cheerfulcharlie Heptode Join Date: May 2009 Location: Birmingham, West Midlands, UK. Posts: 708	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? Another solution is to just bag the whole thing up, get rid of it, and chuck it ..somewhere responsibly. Life is too short already to play health Russian Roulette with some cruddy old decaying bit of kit.

27th Nov 2019, 6:36 pm	#17
Maarten Dekatron Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Haarlem, Netherlands Posts: 4,203	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? The asbestos looks a bit as if it wasn't there originally.

27th Nov 2019, 6:59 pm	#19
TonyDuell Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK. Posts: 5,213	Re: Is this asbestos in a Uher power supply? The power supply had been opened before I got it (there are holes in the label over the 4 screws) so I can't be sure anything is original. But if it was added, why was it added? Alas the service information I have gives the circuit for the power supply but not a parts list or exploded diagram so I can't be sure what should be there.