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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 1:38 pm   #41
AC/HL
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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The better operators in China are no longer as cheap as they were and some Western companies are shifting production back out of China.
Nothing new here. The Bean Counters are continually on the lowest common denominator search. Japan, the rest of the far east, Turkey, China. Eventually chewed up and spit out when the next cheapest arrives.
Actually, it is of no consequence where the production equipment is moved to. It's tax regimes and international brokers who rule the roost. Manufacturers have absolutely no interest in the well being of their national bases.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 3:50 pm   #42
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Hi everyone

Capacitors seam (seem) to be the main reason modern gear stops working.

I don't get involved with white goods often, but this year have repaired: -

Our Whirlpool freezer, electronic temp control PCB, capacitive dropper cap way down on value.
Three Onity room heat and light control units from local hotel, all with cap droppers low on value
Money counter from same hotel, power supply caps
Two Touch control table lights, triacs S/C

And at work the number of motor run caps we are changing, some less than 12 months old is crazy, and lots of extraction fans burnt out as a result of the caps failing

As others have said, how many £10,000 is spent every year for the sake of a few £ of decent caps
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 4:40 pm   #43
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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Only this morning, whilst walking my dogs, I noticed a 42" Bush LCD set next to a skip. On knocking on the door, I was told that the set was not working and I was welcome to it. I went back with the van and was given both the remote and instructions!

I have had a quick check; looks like a PSU problem, the set has a manufacture date of 09/10

I am waiting for my power screwdriver to charge up before removing the dozens of screws securing the back.

Mark
I've usually got a couple of printed slips, together with a sticky label or two in my wallet with the following wording.

"Do you wish to dispose of the following item?

<write in item here, eg tv, pc, etc>


I can make use of it. If you are happy to let me take it away, please leave it near to the boundary of your property with this note attached and I will call back within 24 hours and take it away without disturbing you.

Thank you".


If I see something interesting in a driveway etc, I fill in what it is, put the note through the door with a label, so they can stick it onto the item. Go back a few hours later, if the item is in the gateway with my note on it, thats my permission to take it away!
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 5:07 pm   #44
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Anything electrical left remotely near the pavement around these parts disappears in a matter of hours. I like to think it's people like us, but I suspect it's the scrap metal collectors as even things that I'd turn my nose up at always go.
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Old 23rd Dec 2012, 6:52 pm   #45
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but I suspect it's the scrap metal collectors
Better than landfill.
 
Old 24th Dec 2012, 11:19 am   #46
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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At work the number of motor run caps we are changing, some less than 12 months old is crazy, and lots of extraction fans burnt out as a result of the caps failing.
I fell foul of this one just a few weeks ago. My pressure washer failed to start, hummed loudly then blew the fuse. It was only 18 months old but I was resigned to the fact that the motor had probably seized.

I cut the lead off, took it to bits and salvaged the motor capacitor then chucked the rest in the recycle bin. Another load of modern scrap!

Just out of interest I checked the cap on my tester..You guessed it, O/C!
These never used to fail or they didn't in my younger day.

I tipped out the bin, salvaged all the parts and put it back together again.
A new capacitor and all is well.

The cap looks brand new but must be of very poor construction or suffering from 'fail safe' syndrome.
Personally I think I would rather have it explode. At least you would be directed towards the cause of the fault.

Millions of tons of good equipment must be scrapped every year to be replaced with similar poor quality products.
Think of it, all that production, fuel and transportation of huge quantities of materials around the World.
Please don't tell me I need a 'windmill' in the back yard or turn my roof into a 'Tortoise' in order to save the planet!
Regards, John.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 1:43 pm   #47
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

It;s a crying shame, really.

Things like flatscreen tellies are so often sold on wonderful vibrant colours, super slimline speakers etc.- the corollary of all this high tech is the need for scarce, expensive, exotic elements (the rare earths, indium, gallium and so on), energy intensive and polluting to extract, refine and ship world-wide. The shorter the heavily thrifted and value-engineered product cycle, the worse the problem.

I realise that this is straying well beyond forum scope but I would imagine that anyone intelligent and thoughtful enough to successfully and safely mend a piece of vintage kit is also intelligent and thoughtful enough to see the glaring and unsustainable profligacy. I get something of a buzz to give a new lease of life to something that would otherwise be condemned to a hole in the ground, yet even techie colleagues of mine deride me for revitalizing something with a duff SMPSU for the sake of £2-3 worth of capacitors- "oh, you can get a new, updated one for £50- and it'll have a guarantee..." I've just successfully reformed a couple of HT electrolytics dated Feb 1950 no problem- they wouldn't have cost much to replace but that's not the point.,

As John (HKS) highlighted in an earlier post, all too often one can fix one fault but there'll be another half-dozen cheapskate components just waiting to shrug off the mortal coil in short order. Difficult to know what to do without a magic wand (for duff gear- and human nature!).

Anyway, Merry Christmas and as Graham the moderator says, keep the soldering iron hot,

Colin.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 11:25 pm   #48
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Another product affected by prematurely failed caps are air compressors. I have an involvement with this type of equipment and failed motor start and motor run caps are such a common component to fail that I replace them as a service item if a unit is being serviced or repaired for another reason. In some cases the motor is protected by a thermal trip or overload cutout but if the misguided user has bypassed this somehow the motor is often cooked and destroyed.
However, I have some compressors more than 40 years old with the original motor caps still working well, the difference is, they are oil filled which is now illegal.
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 3:14 am   #49
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Over the past decade I've repaired dozens of items with failed electrolytic capacitors. I used to scavenge electrical items such as computers, LCD monitors, TVs and Sky Digital boxes from the local household waste dump, fix them and sell them for a bit of pocket money. I didn't even pay for new capacitors, just salvaged them from other scrap items like fax machines and printers which have no resale value.

Bulging or domed capacitors are easy to spot and replace, yet the dump was overflowing with stuff thrown away because a few pence worth of parts had failed. Some of the discarded items were actually still working when they were dumped. It seemed like madness - an unsustainable waste of resources. What is the world coming to?

I guess it all started when out-of-town discount stores and supermarkets started selling cheap TVs and electronics. They offered low prices but no after-sales service or repairs. People flocked to the supermarkets, who sold high volumes at low profit margin. This low profit margin gradually put the small independent TV shops out of business. (Not just TV shops, but bakeries, butchers and other specialist shops have disappeared.)
Now, if your TV breaks and it's out of warranty, you throw it away and buy a new one. There's no TV repair shop to take it to. But it CAN be fixed! Even if it's not as simple as a blown capacitor, you can often get whole replacement circuit boards on ebay for a lot less than the cost of a new TV. Sadly, most people have now learned the wasteful habit of "throw it away and buy a new one". On the positive side, I've made a bit of extra money by repairing stuff that others can't be bothered with and saved myself lots of money by repairing and re-using instead of buying new.
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 5:32 am   #50
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

I repaired my DVD/HDD recorder when it failed after 14 months of use - 4 caps in the PSU were replaced with 105c types from maplin, cost: less than £2!!

Even with modern equipment it's so satisfying to plug it back in & see it come back to life - I already had a good idea what the problem was going to be even before googling that model & it's a very common problem - it seems that quite a few have just been thrown away!!

A £220 machine when new am amazed that folk just discard & replace!

A great forum by the way - really enjoy reading daily on here

Nick
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Old 25th Dec 2012, 11:22 am   #51
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

We all moan about leaky old Hunts caps, but these lasted OK when the set's were new, the failure rate of some modern caps is truly awful.

Quote:
I repaired my DVD/HDD recorder when it failed after 14 months of use - 4 caps in the PSU were replaced with 105C types from Maplin, cost: less than £2!!
I have replaced the caps in my Sony freeview DVD/HDD recorder, I paid a fiver for it at a boot sale, a couple of caps in the PSU got it working perfectly

Every cloud has a silver lining, my entire AV setup, including a 42" HD TV, Freesat HD recorder, freeview HD box and the Sony DVD/HDD owes me around £50, including the replacement caps


Mark
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 3:17 pm   #52
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Equipment manufacturers do not want you to be able to have your electronics equipment repaired. Why? It is not in their interest. They can make more money from the customer by selling a replacement / new one than having the old / faulty one repaired - even if it sent back to the original manufacturer for that repair.
Hence, equipment is now designed to last for a limited (and much less now) period of time. Since all the manufacturers follow this policy of "designed to last only so long, so they'll buy another", the notion of buying an item from the competition - who do not adhere to that policy - is not available to the customer.

Al.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 5:39 pm   #53
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Without wishing to get political, it is about time that our Government and the EU investigated the high cost of spare parts that puts people off repairing their products.

In this day and age of going green, saving the planet, and trying to discourage things going to landfill, surely repair has got to be better than replacement.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 9:21 pm   #54
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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it is about time that our Government and the EU investigated the high cost of spare parts that puts people off repairing their products.
That wouldn't help with labour costs though which are usually much more than parts.

The main problem is that consumer products are far too cheap. A colour TV in 1967 was around £300, the same as a car. I can't see anyone paying £12000 or so for a modern TV.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 9:37 pm   #55
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

They have a limited life and that is it. I spent a while this week back at my mates TV repair shop that is teetering on closure.

He had many flat panel receivers in for repair with weird faults mostly caused by electrolytic failure. Easy you might say but the receiver I was examining had literally hundreds of those nasty surface mount aluminium things with a black strip on the top.
The whole chassis smelled of vinegar and large numbers of those horrors were either O/C or leaky causing damage to boards.

It would be very unwise to attempt a repair of any nature and even if you did manage it. how long would it take and who would pay the bill? As mentioned earlier, the wretched thing would probably fail again soon after, causing grief to everyone.

Manufacturers service departments have gone for ever together with the necessary back up. They will never return. The writing was on the wall 10 years ago when I finally left the trade in 2002 after starting as a young lad with an after school job in a telly shop at the age of 12 in 1960.

I do not own a flat panel television but if I did and it went pop I would do what everybody else does and take it to the tip! Horror I know but I've just seen a brand new boxed 42" in the sales for £165.

The service trade has had it and the motor trade is following at an alarming rate but that is not for this Forum. Happy 2013. John
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 10:02 pm   #56
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Yes, it's sad to see John, but you're right. The extreme low cost of 'brand new' has killed the economics of repairing anything.

I did hope that when LCD and similar sets first became available that their high purchase price may have made their repair viable, but of course new prices fall as production volumes increase.
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Old 26th Dec 2012, 11:10 pm   #57
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

I was once told that there are three prices for a component or should I say spare part from a manufacturer.

Retail: The price a member of the public pay to a dealer for that part.

Trade: The price that the dealer buys it for

Factory Price, the price paid by the factory for that component.

For example, I recently had a 24" Panasonic TV with a failed screen repaired under warranty, the set was around £300 to buy so can someone explain why the dealer price of the screen was over £200 + VAT?
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 2:00 pm   #58
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

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Without wishing to get political, it is about time that our Government and the EU investigated the high cost of spare parts that puts people off repairing their products.
The government (of any colour) are quite happy for people to buy new bits of kit, cars etc. because they collect a nice chunk of VAT every time. A graphic example of this was the recent 'Car Scrappage Scheme'. Most of the cars bought were imported (Malasian, Italian) and so didn't actually support indiginous manufacturers but the government didn't care because they collected the VAT on the sales which was based on the original price, not on the discounted price.

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Last edited by flyingtech55; 27th Dec 2012 at 2:02 pm. Reason: clarification and non politisation of the term 'government'
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 2:57 pm   #59
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

It all keeps the economic whirlpool in motion. We have just had a warning about what happens when it slows down for whatever reason. We're all still here, living, eating, buying. The money is still here somewhere (if it ever was), but everything suddenly stopped and restarting it is predicted to take a generation.
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Old 27th Dec 2012, 3:02 pm   #60
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Default Re: My Daughter's TV and a bit of a rant!

Hi
I suspect the reason that screens are so expensive is that they are fragile and difficult to store and transport. The Sale of Goods Act (or similar) states that parts are to be kept available for a fixed period, possibly five years, but no mention is made of the cost. So if my TV wants a screen at four years old I can get one but the cost will exceed several times the value of the set, or even the cost of a new equivalent. If I insisted, of course, I could get a screen, but no-one would. So therefore the manufacturer only needs to keep one or two in stock instead of the thousands it would need if the price were realistic.
We recently needed a screen for an in-guarantee repair on a 42" 3D television - I think it was an LG. Much to our surprise a large parcel with a new screen arrived from Switzerland. To our even greater surprise the price to the warranty provider was just over £150. Contrast that with the cost of a 42" plasma screen for a five-year old Philips at over £3500 (I kid you not - check CHS).
Despite some of the above posts, people like Michael Maurice and myself are still repairing sets for customers. I don't earn much, but it's still just viable, and people are still able to have their sets fixed, though I spend almost as much time persuading them to accept the estimate than doing the job. The amount of people that say 'Eighty pounds? But I can buy a new one for £250!'. Yes, but when I went to school that's a saving of two-thirds, but the 'must-have' mentality over-rules the head. Even a relation I saw yesterday had disposed of his kitchen TV as it had failed and seemed surprised I'd even contemplate repairing a cheapo TV.
I think the Chinese get a bad press - they can make quality goods as easily as poor ones, but the customer is king, and they pay the piper.
Here's hoping the workshop will still be open at the end of 2013 - we'll see.
Glyn
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