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Old 14th Feb 2019, 12:32 pm   #1
GreasedMonkey
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Default New (old) TV project.

Hi all,

New member to the forum, though I have been reading these pages on and off for a while now.

Anyhow I have a small project in mind but wanted to run it by those more knowledgeable than myself before going off half-cocked as it were.

I like to have a TV on as I work in my workshop at home, but find these modern LCD TVs quite restrictive in terms of viewing angle as I am never directly in front of the thing. This coupled with my passion of all things old and a desire to inject new life into things that would otherwise be landfill leads me to a new project idea.

I would like to get an old B&W set from the late 70s or early 80s and update it by adding a Freeview receiver into it. I am assuming that as long as I can find a set that is pre single-chip era it should be possible to identify the different stages of the set and inject a video and audio signal into the corresponding signal paths and do away with the integral tuner. If this is a non starter then I could always modulate the signal. I would plan to then locate the IR remote receiver somewhere discrete so I can use an old set with modern TV transmission but still having a single box solution.

I have knowledge of electronics and radio waves as I am an electronic engineer by trade and work heavily with EMC testing.
I have some knowledge of CRT TV technology as I had a Saturday job throughout my college years repairing ex-rental sets in the early 90s.
I have basic equipment in my home workshop, variacs, oscilloscopes, bench supplies, meters etc., but also access to a fully equipped electronics lab at work that I could use out of hours.

Ideally the set I would like to use would be a GEC Junior Fineline, but realise this would be a longshot so a second choice would be the basic B&W sets that were everywhere in my youth with a single tuning knob for channel selection. I definitely want it to be a B&W set as I just find watching a B&W picture to be less stressful on my eyes. I often get told off when the wife turns on our modern 4k Smart TV Sony Bravia in the morning to find I have been watching TV the night before and have left the colour turned all the way down.

Any initial thoughts on this project will be welcomed as I know there is a wealth of knowledge on this forum. I also realise that the kind of set I intend to use may be of little interest to some users here compared to some of the beautiful old sets seen in these pages, but please consider this a 'starter project' as my old cars take up a lot of room and I need to find a smaller hobby.

Thanks in advance for any comments / suggestions.

Last edited by GreasedMonkey; 14th Feb 2019 at 12:42 pm.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 12:47 pm   #2
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

If it’s a small screen portable mono tv you want there are some working examples on eBay. Just use a Freeview box with in built modulator. Shouldn’t be a lot of work to put together.

How do you get any work done with a TV in the workshop, is it not more of a distraction?
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 1:16 pm   #3
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

As Frank says there should be absolutely no need to create a dedicated input to a B+W set, although it's good to hear that you do have those skills GM. Absolute beginners are very welcome as well of course but we get a lot of those these days re the increased interest in "retro". Sometimes the FV boxes with a modulator built in, so you can tune to a spare channel via the TV aerial socket, are more expensive. If you are one of those rare individuals who hasn't binned the VCR yet you could use that as the modulator, feeding the FV Box through the scart and out to the set. Just like everyone used to do at home in the "olden" days of 405 line Analogue Broadcasting.

I have the TV on most of the time Frank but it's probably not good for me. I'm not usually looking at it though. There are a lot of medical concerns about "information overload" in this wonderful new age! I can see your point about a B+W image being less vibrant GM. A b+w white film on the Talking Pictures channel [81] is relatively soothing although some have very crisp images indeed. A gloomy Film Noir is probaly your best bet

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Old 14th Feb 2019, 1:24 pm   #4
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

I am probably a bit biased about the TV, I find so little that interests me it gets turned on only when I want to watch something. However the radio is on most of the day.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 2:09 pm   #5
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

Thanks for the input so far.

Nuvistor, How do I get any work done in the workshop with a TV on? I Don't, would be the simple answer, but when I am tinkering in the workshop it is just for hobby and relaxation, it's where I go after work is done house is tidy and small people are fed, washed and gone to bed, no job needs to be finished at any set time. If it takes me 3 months to clean and rebuild a carburettor then so be it, its no issue. As for finding an old set, I have checked eBay but they are all too far away, silly money, or both. There must be hundreds of these things littering attics and sheds up and down the country. I have no issue with a non-working one, as long as the tube and LOPT are good it can be bought back to life.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ferguson-...cAAOSw5WVbiriG

Dave Walsh, I have not binned my old VCRs but I am looking for a single box solution. I think my automotive background dictates that I don't want to decode a signal, then modulate it and then demodulate it if I don't have to. In my working life even a SMD resistor that is not needed is just extra cost and therefore a big NO-NO. Also, Its not much of a project if I just put a box inside another box.

I was thinking of using one of those small freeview receivers that fit directly into the SCART socket for obvious size reasons, these do not have a modulated output, but I can easily find a composite video and audio out from them. I was hoping I could then just use these baseband signals direct into the relevant parts of the set. Obviously if it is not going to be that easy, its better to find out before I rip apart a perfectly good TV set and freeview receiver. Signal sensitivity is not an issue as we are in a very strong signal area and our 'main' aerial is a bit of bent welding rod in the attic, this happily drives 4 freeview TV's.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 3:49 pm   #6
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreasedMonkey View Post
As for finding an old set, I have checked eBay but they are all too far away, silly money, or both. There must be hundreds of these things littering attics and sheds up and down the country. I have no issue with a non-working one, as long as the tube and LOPT are good it can be bought back to life.
Hi GM & welcome to the forum!

You will be amazed at how scarce B&W sets are from the '70's! 12" portables are fairly common if that is what you are after? 405 line only sets from the late '50's are pretty common but once you get to dual standard sets and beyond, the availability plummets!

You would be looking at something like a 20" Thorn 1500, but even these, made up to the late '70's were 'hybrid' and still used a number of valves. There are not many makes of set that will appreciate being left on for long periods without failure!

Don't forget too that most sets from this era were 'live chassis' designs which needs to be considered when making modifications.

Ebay sellers are wildly optimistic about prices of old TV's. They get re-listed time and time again and still don't sell!

So your main challenge will be to find a suitable set to modify!

All the best
Nick
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 4:10 pm   #7
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

Hi Nick,

A 12" portable would be just fine for what I want to do. It does not need to be a large set for the workshop. When I was but a youth, little 12" portable mono TV's with a single tuning knob for channel selection were in every bedroom up and down the country, I cant believe they have all gone. I was different, I had a GEC Junior Fineline set, I think it was 12" but it had 4 presets, mechanical tuning as you had to turn the 'button' to tune. They would always be slightly off as it was pretty much impossible to push the presets without turning them slightly. I remember the day I was given my first home computer (ZX Spectrum) and I had the agonising decision as to which TV channel to bin in favour of computer games. (as it turns out, it didn't last long as I never got into the whole gaming thing).
A 405 line set would add the extra complexity of standards conversion and I assume be impossible to make into a single box solution. Maybe later on I will take on some 405 line or valve sets with a lovely wooden case. But for this first TV project an old portable will do the job. I remember fixing my younger sisters portale mono TV years ago (Saisho branded I think) and there was plenty of unused space inside the case.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 4:27 pm   #8
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

I didn't realise there is a gap in the availability curve Nick and that it might be the set that's the problem not the signal feed!. Other's have pointed out in the past that times have changed and with the advent of Digit-Al there wouldn't be so much stuff floating around in the future as happened previously when things were relativly static for long periods. It seems to be true.

For example, I've a massive 1986 LG set with a 32" CRT [it looked very big then] that I've held on to but like the earlier Projection Sets, I doubt many other people have. It's perhaps similar to the big trade in scheme for motors a few years when some quite nice vehicles were crushed in the process. The digital and then LCD WS revolution certainly speeded up the re-cycling of CRT and later sets. There is [or was] a specialist centre out near Tonbridge? that even re purposed the lining of the screens with a massive turnover. You seem to want a solid state type set GM and those plug in FV devices are very handy but wouldn't a set with scart be later than your favoured period?

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Old 14th Feb 2019, 4:43 pm   #9
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

Yes, I am after a solid state set for this project. I have never seen a mono set with a scart before, do they exist? I don't want to use a scart as such, its just that it would be easy to modify and obtain a video and audio signal from this type of device. These signals I had hoped could then be fed into the relevant points of the TV set, bypassing the TVs own tuner.

Apologies if I am not being particularly clear on what I am hoping to achieve, this will be my first TV based project so I am not yet familiar with terminologies and such. I have not had anything to do with TV since my part time job more years ago than I care to admit (to myself or others).
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 5:34 pm   #10
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

Is is worth checking your local Freecycle community for a TV?
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 7:11 pm   #11
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

Good idea. I hadn’t thought about freecycle. I will give it a try.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 8:59 pm   #12
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

I've got one or two 12" B/W portables you're welcome to FOC. Should be possible to get them going but no idea what the tube condition is.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 9:26 pm   #13
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

You actually have a number of options:

1. Find a vintage 70s-80s 12" portable TV (ignore the silly prices on ebay - you can also ask in the Wanted section of this forum), then get a Freeview box with built-in modulator. Connect them together with an aerial lead. I wouldn't bother trying to modify a vintage TV for AV input. Plenty of boxes with modulators are available secondhand very cheaply. Look in car boot sales and house clearance / charity shops. Some boxes to look out for:
Goodmans GDR10 , GDR11
Humax F2-FOX-T , PVR9200T
Icecrypt T5000 , T2300HD
Thomson DTI2300 , DTI6300
TVOnics MFR-200 , MFR300
The TVOnics units are incredibly small, have RF modulators and use external power. It would be possible to fit one inside a 12" portable quite easily. Only problem is they have been discontinued for a long time and are hard to find.

Alternatively you could fit a modulator to any set-top box. Standalone modulators are available, or you could build one out of a Playstation RF unit.

2. Obtain a modern small B/W TV with AV inputs, then use any set-top box. Many of the Chinese made little 5.5" TV/radio sets had AV in. There were also some larger sizes made, such as the 9" Roadstar TVM-9003 . Those Chinese B/W TVs were made in large quantities in the early years of this century; they are still common and cheap, especially at car boot sales.

3. Get a monochrome CCTV monitor, which will have video input. Use any set-top box to supply the video. CCTV monitors usually don't have sound, so you'll need to add some PC speakers for example.
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Old 14th Feb 2019, 10:40 pm   #14
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

I've got a junior fineline that's hiding behind a lot of stuff at the moment that you're welcome to if I can manage to shift the other items out of the way and not get a hernia in the process. it was working but i've not plugged it in for a few years now so i cant guarantee that it works. but as ive said its free if you want it.

Cheers
Neil.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 10:05 am   #15
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

llama, Thank you for the kind offer, however you are just too far away from me. I am in North Worcestershire, near to the droitwich radio 4 transmitter masts. The red lights on them illuminate part of my garden.

neil29, Again, thank you for the kind offer. You are a little too far for me to get to in the immediate future, (around 2 hours each way) but I do venture over that way once in a blue moon. Could I possibly get in touch next time I am going to be over that way as I would really like a Junior Fineline set. If not for this project, then just because I want one. I assume an old TV set is best not left in the hands of couriers.

I shall post a wanted add and see if there is anything up for grabs closer to home to begin with. My main concern is the wife would see it as a waste of time for me to spend most of a day collecting and old TV.

hamid_1, I am well aware its probably not "worth it" to modify an old set for AV input, but I don't want to do it for any sort of net gain, this is purely my next project and I guess its simply being done 'just because'. Your suggestions 2 and 3 would be viable solutions and easy to implement, but do not fall into the single box solution I am looking to achieve. I can soon knock up a modulator if needs be, of just cannibalise something for its modulator, but I guess stubbornness dictates that I try to achieve my original plan if at all possible.
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Old 15th Feb 2019, 11:15 am   #16
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Default Re: New (old) TV project.

Quote:
Originally Posted by neil29 View Post
I've got a junior fineline that's hiding behind a lot of stuff at the moment that you're welcome to if I can manage to shift the other items out of the way and not get a hernia in the process. it was working but i've not plugged it in for a few years now so i cant guarantee that it works. but as ive said its free if you want it.

Cheers
Neil.
I will put a request in the transport section, you never know, someone may be coming this way in the future.
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