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Old 4th Jan 2023, 4:17 am   #401
dmowziz
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Default Re: 6-gang FM stereo tuner heads

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Originally Posted by regenfreak View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by G0HZU_JMR View Post
The single diode limiter (with a bias choke across it) probably isn't a good choice as a protection limiter. It won't offer very good isolation for large signals. A better limiter design will use four diodes arranged as a classic clipping limiter.

A typical silicon diode will have a forward voltage of about 0.8 to 0.9V when biased hard so the clipping limiter will produce a rounded square wave output at about 1.8Vpkpk when hard limiting. Hiding inside this 1.8Vpkpk rounded square wave will be a fundamental sine wave of about 2.3Vpkpk (or 1.15Vpk)

This will produce a through leakage power of (1.15^2)/100 watts into a 50R load when hard limiting. This is about +11dBm at the fundamental frequency. That's what you can expect from a classic 4 diode limiter. Some limiters only use two diodes, and this can help extend the bandwidth to >2GHz. The 2-diode limiter won't be as rugged though.

I'm a bit out of date when it comes to the capability of modern limiter diodes, but 15-30 years ago a well-designed silicon (4) diode limiter could withstand a 5-10W incident power (without damage) whilst limiting the leakage to less than about +13dBm. The limiter should be transparent to signals that have a maximum amplitude that is in the order of <0.6Vpkpk. i.e. the limiter should not cause any significant distortion to waveforms smaller than this.

Thanks. The 4 rectifier diode idea is still in my mind but I am concerned about the large diode junction capacitance which may call for a matching network to tweak the S11 and S21 at high frequencies.

I have taken another potshot at the PIN diode. I ordered a Skyworks SMP1330-005LF last night. It is a PIN-Schottky pair, having a threshold about +10dbm, C=0.7pF, 14db attenuation at +30dbm working up to 4GHz (see power characteristics attached). I speculated that the cheapo pin-limiter does not work well because it uses only a single diode PIN diode.

https://www.skyworksinc.com/-/media/...es_200050N.pdf

I am going to add two 1kV 1206 10nF and 250mA SMT fuse plus a 70V 4532 SMD ceramic GDT (capacitance = 0.5pF) to safeguard against "catastrophic event". I will house them in RF shield instead of using a metal box.

I have been looking at the integrated SKY1662-632LF datasheet:

https://www.skyworksinc.com/-/media/...LF_202945L.pdf

It is kind of interesting to see how they put a simple series LC network to optimize the S11 and S21. With L = 1.8nH, C=15pF for 2.45GHz, they transpose the peak and trough for S11 and S21 to the right. The equivalent circuit of a PIN diode (in open state) is like a small inductor in series with the paralleled capacitor and a very large resistor. The S21 and S11 look a bit like a very broadband bandpass filter.


PS: I have received the ATC caps and other goodies that you sent. Thank you so much. I am building a "Q detector probe" with your ATC 1pF caps. It will use FET MMBF310 and MMBF3906 as impedance convertor. The device will be used to find approx Q and resonance frequency of air variable tuning gangs and IF transformers for MW, SW and FM radios in unpowered state.
The ATC100 series caps have Q about 10,000..quite badass!



Just wondering,

Please the big things that look metallic.

Are they the capacitors? 1 of them is 1 capacitor?
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 3:20 pm   #402
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Default Re: 6-gang FM stereo tuner heads

[QUOTE=dmowziz;1525766]
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Originally Posted by regenfreak View Post


Just wondering,

Please the big things that look metallic.

Are they the capacitors? 1 of them is 1 capacitor?
They are low-profile Faraday cages/ metal shields for SMD circuit boards that come with mounting clips. They are handy for high-frequency or microwave circuits and are cheaper alternatives to the metal housing.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 3:37 pm   #403
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Default Re: 6-gang FM stereo tuner heads

They aren't Faraday cages, the metal is solid, so they also act on magnetic field components. Faraday screens are special, they are aligned grids of wires designed for purely electric field screening and are pretty much useless for general screening duties.

The idea behind the wire grids is that there is no path for circulating eddy currents.

This is a very common confusion, but it's wrong. You'll find real faraday screens inside some transformers to block capacitive coupling between windings.

These things are simple metal screening boxes, often plated steel or brass. They get soldered onto printed circuit boards over an area of componets doing something sensitive. Often the PCB has a groundplane area which acts as the lid, completing the screening box. They are a right pain for fault finding and access. They need a bigger soldering iron to remove them than they take to fit!

David
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 6:02 pm   #404
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Default Re: 6-gang FM stereo tuner heads

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They aren't Faraday cages, the metal is solid, so they also act on magnetic field components. Faraday screens are special, they are aligned grids of wires designed for purely electric field screening and are pretty much useless for general screening duties.

The idea behind the wire grids is that there is no path for circulating eddy currents.

This is a very common confusion, but it's wrong. You'll find real faraday screens inside some transformers to block capacitive coupling between windings.

These things are simple metal screening boxes, often plated steel or brass. They get soldered onto printed circuit boards over an area of componets doing something sensitive. Often the PCB has a groundplane area which acts as the lid, completing the screening box. They are a right pain for fault finding and access. They need a bigger soldering iron to remove them than they take to fit!

David
I see. The real Friday cage is often found in tesla coil demo where people stand inside;

https://youtu.be/Lqwj5bACKbU

The shields i got have clip-on bits that you are supposed to solve the de-soldering problem you mentioned.
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Old 4th Jan 2023, 10:06 pm   #405
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Default Re: 6-gang FM stereo tuner heads

Some people suggested that the magnetic induction transformer was actually coupling energy capacitively. So Faraday invented his special shield, which blocks electric fields only to prove that the coupling had to be magnetic.

Unfortunately, some people automatically prefix the word screen with Faraday's name. Maybe they think it makes the screens appear screenier? But in reality from the point of screening radio signals, Faraday screens leak like a seive. It's comparable to prefixing every mention of the word 'Tyre" with the word "flat". But Faraday screen/cage/shield seems to have entered folklore. Lexicographers have their dictionaries change to follow newer usage, but this is science and we are talking specific and defined terms here where we can't let meanings change without trashing knowledge.

Not being grumpy, just trying to defend something we need for accuracy.

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Old 5th Jan 2023, 11:06 am   #406
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Default Re: 6-gang FM stereo tuner heads

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Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
Faraday screens leak like a seive. It's comparable to prefixing every mention of the word 'Tyre" with the word "flat". But Faraday screen/cage/shield seems to have entered folklore. Lexicographers have their dictionaries change to follow newer usage, but this is science and we are talking specific and defined terms here where we can't let meanings change without trashing knowledge.

Not being grumpy, just trying to defend something we need for accuracy.

David
The levels of H- and E- fields penetration vary significantly with frequencies, see attachment. Above 100KHz, the W- and H- field converges into plane waves over a wide range of frequencies...The rule of thumb is that the grid spacing is about 1/10th of the wavelength.
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 3:27 pm   #407
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Default Re: 6-gang FM stereo tuner heads

Incidentally I have been digging through the Black Hawk helicopter aerodynamic performance data ( to do with my job), I have noticed that there were 5 crashes caused by the Black Hawk flying close to radio broadcast towers. Subsequently they improved the EMI shielding of the avionics and flight controls. There were many similar incidents for other fixed wings and rotary wing vehicles in this NASA report:

https://ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/...9960009442.pdf
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Old 5th Jan 2023, 3:27 pm   #408
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Default Re: 6-gang FM stereo tuner heads

Distance gets in on the act too. Far field in normally taken as 20 lambda from a source. Within that area, as you get nearer the source, you can find predominantly one field more than the other. Another factor is skin depth and then there is the permeability of the shield.

However, use of the prefix - Faraday takes care of all that and specifies a shield designed to pass magnetic components. And as we all learn in trying to screen things, electric components aren't too bad, it's the magnetic ones which are the devils.

David
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