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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 19th Nov 2022, 8:08 pm   #21
Techman
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

The large oval speaker looks to be about right for the Elizabethan as far as I remember. I think the smaller round speaker on the elliptical baffle is from the Ferguson 3248 and if it is then it's obviously wrong. I think I've got a couple of these recorders, possibly branded HMV, but they're difficult to get to at the moment.

I knew Collaro and Magnavox became one and the same one way round or the other.
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Old 19th Nov 2022, 11:14 pm   #22
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Yes obvious now that the round speaker in the Ferguson 3248 is not the original.

David
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Old 19th Nov 2022, 11:43 pm   #23
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

The 3248 Service manual lists a 8 Ohm elliptical speaker and 8 Ohm is shown on the schematic, the fitted round speaker is 4 Ohms.

David
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Old 20th Nov 2022, 10:11 pm   #24
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techman View Post
It rumbles along nicely like all BSR TD10 tape decks do, just turn the music up and you won't notice it.
I should mention that I've replaced the main idler in a TD-10 machine that I have, with a Philips idler from an EL3547 (the EL3542 and similar machines with the same mech chassis (EL3536 among others) have three of them, and the EL3546 also has an idler of the same type). The outer diameter and shaft diameter are identical, but the shape of the hub is different, meaning that some creative work with some washers or shims is needed to get it to work properly. Still, these older Philips idlers predate the 'goo' era and tend to be reasonably supple still, so in my case it was a definitive improvement over the original but very much hardened one.
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Old 21st Nov 2022, 3:39 pm   #25
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Your thread spurred me on to take a look at mine, which, I discovered, had a seized up joystick from standing unused for years! The problem wasnít so much the joystick, but the reel table pivot arms. Just like BSR record deck platters, the two dissimilar metals had bonded together, well that plus hardened grease and that has stopped them swinging. I soon sorted that out though.

First of all I can confirm that the big oval speaker that you show is the one thatís fitted in mine, so that puts that one to bed.

Secondly, and this is more of a question really, what sort of gap is there between the bottom of the motor and the underside of the casing? The gap in my example is less than 1mm. No wonder that the ventilation grille has all crumbled away! I initially thought that the motor had dropped due to rotted rubber mounts, but they seem to not be deformed, ok they might be a bit hard, but they donít look squashed. Also, if the motor had dropped, the stepped motor pulley wouldnít be engaging properly with the capstan idler on all speeds (which it is), although, the position of the motor pulley in relation to the fast forward idler (removed in the photo to show the capstan idler more clearly), does seem to suggest that the motor has dropped (as the idler is only just engaging with the upper most part of the pulley. All that is weird though because the pulley is all one piece, so how can the FF pulley step be a bit lower than it should be whilst the other parts of the pulley are in the right place? It points to the FF idler being I the wrong place, but that cannot be adjusted (apart from taking the lower shim/washer out, which doesnít move t much).

Looking closely at the underside of the cabinet, especially with the straight edge against it, it looks like itís slightly bowed inward, so that doesnít help.
Naturally, given the close proximity of the motor to the grille, Iím reluctant to fit my newly sourced replacement.

I might see if I can pack the motor up a little, but I canít see me being able to get the clearance that I think it needs. Good game eh.

Finally, not withstanding the above, my machine has never been particularly good at fast forwarding. Obviously it would help if it was meshing with the central part of the pulley as opposed to close to the top edge, but regardless, I thought Iíd try a little experiment. I removed the FF idler wheel, clamped it in a drill and gave it the rough-up treatment on its running edge using Scotchbrite whilst spinning it. I then cleaned it with IPA and gave it a thin coating of ĎPlasti Dipí which has given it a renewed rubber coating. It works a treat!

Iíve just done a new sample recording at 7.5 ips and I was totally blown away by the reproduction. Very impressive indeed!
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Old 21st Nov 2022, 6:36 pm   #26
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Interesting information and thank you for the speaker confirmation.

My gap is around 40mm so huge compared to yours, see first photo. My ventilation grill is good condition.

The distance from the end of the motor to the chassis main metalwork is around 70mm.

My chassis sits on 4 semicircular 3mm thick rubber spacers under the 4 the securing screws. These look very homemade, looks like they have been made from circular washers cut in half. If these were not fitted the chassis would only sit around 3mm lower so the motor gap would only reduce to around 37mm so still huge compared to yours.

David
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Old 21st Nov 2022, 7:35 pm   #27
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

The ventilation grille in the bottom of the case of mine is smashed and you can see the bottom of the motor just behind it. I'd never given it that much thought other than it had either got brittle plastic syndrome or perhaps had been bashed against something while being carried or had been stood on something uneven at sometime in the distant past. I've just been looking through some old pictures in my files to see if I'd taken any of the innards when I originally worked on it and I had, remembering that mine is a slightly different model with different mounting fixings. Also how bad the idler was in mine. There are several more pictures.
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Old 21st Nov 2022, 8:28 pm   #28
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

The internal height of my wooden case is 140mm and the chassis fixings are 35mm down from the top edge of the case. Techman's chassis fixings look much lower.

David
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Old 21st Nov 2022, 9:13 pm   #29
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Thank you guys. There's something really weird going on here - such a massive difference! When I get a moment I'll take it all out of the box again and do some comparisons. Mmmm...

Oooh, that idler's really got it bad hasn't it. I wonder why some go like that and others don't?
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Old 21st Nov 2022, 10:58 pm   #30
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

If yours is similar to Techman's then it looks like the chassis is secured lower down in the case and possibly your cases are not quite as deep as my case, so resulting in the base of the motor getting much closer to the base.

David
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 8:26 pm   #31
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Well Iíve managed to take the chassis out again to make some measurements.

At the moment I canít see whatís different, but something surely must be. Perhaps the entire box isnít so deep on mine?

I certainly canít lift the entire deck up, so it canít be down to that. I canít see how to lift the motor either. I did at least spot a screw adjustment for the height of the idler that drives the flywheel/capstan, so at least I can see that if I could lift the motor and/or its pulley upwards to better align the FF idler against the motor pulley, there would then be the capability to re-align the capstan flywheel with the motor pulley steps. Looking how the FF idler sits in relation to the motor pulley and the take-up spool platter rim, it looks very much like the FF idler is sitting a bit high, but thereís no adjustment for that.

So two mysteries really, why is the motor so low in the chassis and why is the FF idler sitting a little too high? Itís weird stuff for sure. I guess I wonít be fitting my spare grille anytime soon!

Anyhow, conundrums to one side, I thought Iíd report on the effectiveness (or otherwise) of the rubber coating I applied to the rim of the FF idler wheel. It actually works a treat. Itís nice and grippy and FF works better than it ever has in all the years that Iíve had it in my collection. It has just fast forwarded an entire 7.5 inch spool without any problems whatsoever. The transformation is really quite impressive.

Iím not sure about the look of the spring thatís mounted on the joystick mech though. Perhaps itís in backwards or something?

All good fun.

Sorry about the poor focus on some of the photos - the camera drives me mad. Itís supposed to auto-focus, but it fails to do so more often that Iíd care to mention! Thereís no manual override either.
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 8:27 pm   #32
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More photos ...
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 8:29 pm   #33
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More photos ..
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Old 22nd Nov 2022, 9:26 pm   #34
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Your Joystick spring position looks the same as mine.

Your photo 4 in Post 31 shows the chassis mountings are around 80mm below the top of the case, mine are 35mm, so this means your chassis sits 45mm lower.

Your photo 2 in Post 31 shows your external case depth is around 135mm, mine is 145 so another 10mm more on mine.

Also your photo 5 in Post 33 shows your chassis sitting below the top of the case while mine is nearly 10mm above the top of the case (as per photos in Post 1).

So basically your case mounting distance for the chassis is very different.

David
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 3:42 pm   #35
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Hello David,

Thank you for that. Yes I see what's going on now. What a difference that makes - how interesting!

I don't think I can jack mine up in any sensible way, so I think I'm stuck with it. I suppose I could at least mount some internal wooden battens to the bottom (on the inside) to straighten out the slightly bowed-up bottom. That might make 2-3mm difference and give the grille a bit of clearance, although it won't be much of course!

At least the spring looks similarly installed (it also has different ends and it looks like mine is installed the same way as yours in respect of that also). My spring looks a bit sprained in comparison though.

Interestingly, now that I've had chance to compare you FF idler position with mine, they look as though they are both pretty much in the same place, so I'm not so worried now. I would have preferred it sitting a little lower, but that's the way it is I suppose. Also, now that my rubber spray has well and truly sorted out FF, I'm sufficiently content to not mess about anymore (unless in the fullness of time it starts sheading the new rubber coating of course!

This has been a very useful thread. Thank you for posting!

Kind regards,

Andy
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 3:50 pm   #36
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Oh, I nearly forgot, it may also be the case that the cabinet widths are also different. I say this because if I fit a 7 inch reel on mine, the rim of it stays inside the confines of my cabinet. One of your photos looks as if your reel overhangs the cabinet sides a bit. Of course I'm guessing as to what size reel you have on there, so I could be wrong. The extremities of my cabinet width measures 405mm.

I wonder if that's why people talk about a MK1 and a MK2?
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Old 23rd Nov 2022, 7:38 pm   #37
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Yes I noticed that your cabinet width is wider, mine is 385 mm and the reels were 7".

The only reference to Mk. 2 I have seen, refers to improved electronics, no idea if any changes to the case/cabinet.

Think I have seen references to different cabinet styles for similar recorders, i.e. sometimes more than one variant of cabinet for the same/similar model.

I wonder if you removed the chassis mounting brackets and modified them to L shape then fit them to the side battens (that the brackets currently secure to the underside of the battens), this would raise the chassis height quite a bit.

You would have to do careful measurements/checks to see how that would affect how the top panel parts would fit.

David

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Old 24th Nov 2022, 1:14 pm   #38
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Hello David,

Thank you for your further thoughts and cabinet measurement.

If I were to try and jack it up a bit, somehow I think I'd also have to separate and reposition the metalwork that contained the pots and sockets etc downwards else there would be a large gap around the wooden surround.

All good fun eh.

Not until this thread did I realise that there were two different chassis positions and two different cabinets. You learn something every day!
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Old 25th Nov 2022, 9:22 am   #39
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

What is the consistency of that rubber conditioner/replenisher like ? is it like emulsion paint or thicker like gloss paint or thicker still ?

Wondering how easy it is to get a uniform coating.

For an idler that only drives the Take Up reel table for fast forward winding not so important but for an idler that drives the capstan flywheel during Play more important for Wow & Flutter performance.

David
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Old 25th Nov 2022, 10:05 am   #40
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Default Re: Elizabethan LZ 34 R2R Checkout

Hello David,

It sprays on and at that stage its quite fluid. As it dries it tensions up and any slight imperfections that might have been present on first spraying get stretched out to nothingness. Obviously its best to try hard to apply a consistent coating by uniformly rotating during spraying and trying to remember where you started, but so far I've not had a failure.

Prior to spraying this particular idler wheel, I too had wondered about a more critical application, so I sprayed a condemned idler in a BSR record reproducer deck to see. I was amazed! I have to say, it grips like a goodun and there's no bump, wow or flutter that I can perceive as a result. It's probably the best BSR deck I've come across in many years for cycling right through without any slowing down or stalling.

I might try a pinch roller at some point. I think I have a sick one in a Philips N1500 that might benefit. Now that will be a test!

What I don't know of course is how long it will stay attached to the original rubber surface, but so far so good.

It's not so much a replenisher like "Rubber Renew", but an actual rubber coating. I'd say its a bit like emulsion paint consistency when first sprayed, but that rapidly changes as it dries. In fact I had to be pretty quick smartish in removing my masking paper else it would have made all that a permanent feature! I'm not sure you'd get any time to fettle with a paint brush, so you're committed with the spraying I'd say.
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