Perils of the 1950s household.....

[evingar]

Originally Posted by davidw

I think these are what you are describing. They have lived for years in a box of "it'll be useful if I never use it" type stuff!

Yep, they are the jobbies - At the time, I mentioned to my uncle (who was doing the re-wire) that I thought it was a bit of "bodge artists" way of doing things, but he said that he actually found them less problematic then screwed terminals - which he found had a habit of working loose on occasion. Bear in mind I was about 12 at the time, and he started work as an electrician just after the war. I have a much greater respect for old technology now.

I remember my grandad having loads of these, the unglazed ones.

[bobbyball]

Hello Lucien, yes those (a few posts above now) were the sockets we had, quite a neat idea really!

Robert

[Colourstar]

Originally Posted by Brigham

Has anyone here actually conserved a vintage installation?

I'm trying to! My place, built around 1930, has evolved as far as a simple Wylex fusebox with 3 fuses labelled LIGHTS, PLUGS and IMMERSION HEATER. Wiring is grey and occasionally white PVC. The lighting circuit is not earthed. There is an unsheathed earth wire, of the type mentioned by a previous poster, that sort of meanders its way around the place visiting various junction boxes for the sockets en-route. Outlets are few and far between, generally 1 x single per room and are of MK manufacture. I think when it was rewired from rubber to PVC they merely replaced like for like, probably substituting the MK sockets for round-pin originals.

I do rather like the novelty of having no mains outlet at all in the small 3rd bedroom!

If anyone would care to guess when my set-up dates from I'd be interested to know. I can't imagine it would be much later than about 1970?

Steve

[evingar]

I would have thought earlier than the 70s, with those small surface mounted sockets, maybe early 60s ?

[Red to black]

Earthing on the lighting circuit was a requirement in the regs from 1966 onwards (14th Edition), so that should give you some idea of the latest it could be, assuming the electrician at the time followed the regs.

[matthewhouse]

No earth on the lighting circuit would date the installation to pre 1966 if my memory is working. Running a separate earth for sockets is a bit unusual for when PVC has been installed. Was quite common for lighting circuits usually just in the lounge where decorative fittings would have been fitted, shame most of these earth wires never got back to the fuse board. I have come across many where the leg is just buried in the plaster or chucked under the floor.

I recently passed a lighting circuit on a periodic inspection that had no CPC. It satisfied all the requirements for a class II installation, and had 30mA RCD protection. All the pendants were original! and were replaced as the old twisted fabric flex was frayed. The fixed wiring was installed to one of the highest standards I have ever seen. The wiring was neatly clipped throughout and all terminations were perfect, not a single loose screw. The electrician that installed it was 19 years old at the time. I had to show a second year apprentice the other day how to wire a plug.

I was also in a house today that had no sockets in the third bedroom!

Edit: post crossed with Red to Black. My memory does work!

[McMurdo]

The Wylex rewireable consumer units there were available in that pattern with the wooden frame till quite recently, and then with plastic frame after that. My house here has the wooden one (1978) and my parents' extension (1984). The little MK surface sockets were also available in 2,5 and 15A roundpin versions as late as 1976 when the squarish logic range overtook them. In my 1954 wholesale catalogue, their predecessors are shown which look the same but with proud rather than semi recessed toggles.

[Lucien Nunes]

My idea of 'conserving' an installation wasn't meant to include the continued use of decayed wiring! If you visit the Radio or Television portions of this Forum you will find that everything is done to make old gear serviceable, within the confines of original design. Individual components are routinely renewed with the nearest modern equivalent, but to the original plan.

I would think of that process not so much as conservation but ongoing maintenance. Conservation should focus on preventing or retarding deterioration of existing material, restoration on replacing faulty material with good of the original type. We had an interesting discussion about similar issues with radio and TV conservation that revealed a wide variation in outlook though.

You might say that a 1950s TRS twin & earth installation would retain much of its original character even after replacing the cable with PVC, however one could scarcely make that claim about an installation originally equipped with (for example) Stannos or Octopus wiring, because the cable was the unique selling point and the system designed around it. It would still be stretching the point to call a house wired in brown/blue PVC T&E fed from MCBs an example of an old installation, even with the original switches and socket outlets retained in service. Maybe in 2050, but will anyone get nostalgic about 'old-fashioned' EN60898 MCBs?

Lucien

[jay_oldstuff]

Originally Posted by Red to black

Earthing on the lighting circuit was a requirement in the regs from 1966 onwards (14th Edition), so that should give you some idea of the latest it could be, assuming the electrician at the time followed the regs.

are you sure on that? my late Grandmothers house was built in 1968 and had no earth on the lighting circuit.

Jay

[Red to black]

Hi Jay,

Yep, 1966 was when CPCs on lighting was first introduced,
I have attached a Pdf, the statements written in Bold are prior to the date/edition number.

I have some other info. somewhere (buried in a book) which explains a bit better than this Pdf.

[MrElectronicman]

All this reminded me of my parents house which was built in 1935 I think. It had indoor plumbing, electric lights, all mod cons. I used to listen to the wireless, which was a Pilot console radio and later on watch a Bush TV 24C dual band before ITV started up. The mains was supplied from the light in the ceiling rose via a double outlet adaptor.

We had the wiring changed in the 60's to 13 Amp ring mains, but I do not remember whether the ceiling lights had an earth or not.

When I moved to North America I brought some electrical fittings with me so that I could use some of my UK stuff on the 220 VAC. I still have some of them.

Here is a picture.

I also have a picture of some "Wire Nuts" which are very common here.

[emeritus]

Re post #104, I bought some double MK sockets of this design at an electrical suppliers in Holborn, London, around 1980 as clearance items.

[broadgage]

I would agree that newly installed lighting circuits SHOULD have been earthed from 1966 onwards, but rules were not allways followed, especialy if someone had a shed full of twin WITHOUT earth cable that they wanted to use.
Therefore a house wired in 1968 without an earth on the lights is quite probable, though not strictly compliant even when installed.
Twin cable without earth was certainly sold into the 1970s, someone must have purchased and used it.

[pichacker]

Talking of decomposing rubber. I once went to look at a house where the boiler stat was causing interferance on the TV and telephone. The TV picture was poor so I decided to go up into the loft of this bungalow to look at the loft aerial. Never got too far as when I opened the loft hatch I was greeted with wiring that had decomposed and the previous repair had been to hold the conductors apart by banging panel pins into the rafters!!!

I suggested that he had the place rewired and I would then come back for the TV. Never got a call Not a great loss I suppose. house is still standing so it must have been done.

[Brigham]

Originally Posted by Lucien Nunes

I would think of that process not so much as conservation but ongoing maintenance. Conservation should focus on preventing or retarding deterioration of existing material, restoration on replacing faulty material with good of the original type. We had an interesting discussion about similar issues with radio and TV conservation that revealed a wide variation in outlook though.

You might say that a 1950s TRS twin & earth installation would retain much of its original character even after replacing the cable with PVC, however one could scarcely make that claim about an installation originally equipped with (for example) Stannos or Octopus wiring, because the cable was the unique selling point and the system designed around it. It would still be stretching the point to call a house wired in brown/blue PVC T&E fed from MCBs an example of an old installation, even with the original switches and socket outlets retained in service. Maybe in 2050, but will anyone get nostalgic about 'old-fashioned' EN60898 MCBs?

Lucien

My apologies. 'Conserve' is the wrong word. I ought to know better. G. Stephenson's famous old locomotive is conserved close to where I live; it is kept warm & dry, and protected from further decay. No-one would dream of lighting a fire in it, or attempting to make it workable.

A new locomotive, to Stephenson's design, was built to haul existing wagons, and this is similar to some of my installations; all new, but 'in keeping' with the buildlng.

When a goodly amount of 'original' work remains, (not year-after-year bodges), I'm inclined to refurbish the fittings, and renew the wiring along the existing routes. If additional lights, points &c. are needed, they are made to match. Not, as you say, 'conservation', but not a total loss either.

If a complete installation of historic value came to light, my first thought would be to 'leave it alone'. If it could be assessed, photographed, and taken out of everyday use if too frail for further service, then this would be ideal. We don't live in an ideal world, and pre-Great War installations are still being destroyed thoughtlessly on an annual basis. In these circumstances, I simply try to preserve the wreckage.

My main reason for commenting in the first place was to highlight the markedly different way of thinking between discussions here and those in Vintage TV and Radio. You would never hear a radio enthusiast say: "I bought a house and it had an old radio made of wood. It had a bare wire for an aerial and it had a cloth lead from the plug. They had still been using it until last year. I don't know if it worked, I wouldn't dare plug it in"

With a few notable exceptions, that attitude prevails when the subject moves from vintage radio to vintage electricity. The radio above would most certainly end up in the bin, under like circumstances.

[Ed_Dinning]

Re the comments on earthing of lighting circuits in the 60's.
Most installations that were being extended may well have used the old meter tails so were not notified to the board.
Where new premises were being put on supply or an installation was being upgraded and a higher capacity main fuse was required a suitable form from the board was requested and duly filled out by the electrician. From memory this asked for insulation resistance and earth loop impedance, but these values, if nominally satisfactory were accepted and never actually checked. This probably led to all sorts of abuses, especially the "open" ring, saving quite a bit of cable.

Ed

[thermion]

These posts about dodgy wiring are making me laugh, I can recall some horror stories from years ago, like my uncle who lived in a now long demolished house built only from a single skin of brick. dating from the 1830's.

There was a fashion in the early 1970's for copper wallpaper on chimney breasts, fire surrounds etc. being a keen DIY man, he pasted this stuff round the fireplace. The wall was damp,and you got a shock off the wall. it was like that for years.

As a child, I remember we only had the one 3 pin round socket in the house in the front room. It usually had at least two double adaptors in it, plus other wires shoved in under the plugs. My grand dad was a real electrical menace, always a dabbler, the one socket in his front room had a massive burn mark up the wall. We once went round there and he had a chip pan on one of those Belling electric fires that you could lie down to cook on. There were wires everywhere, and I remember once seeing some of that clear twin lighting flex, with a sellotaped joint smoking on the carpet.

His house was full, literally with valve stuff, broken tellys, radios etc. I inherited all the stuff, and the only thing that was any good was a nice AM/FM Advance sig gen. he had around with the trimmers in everything else. The stuff he had over the years beggers belief. I remember a massive valve Hammond organ and Leslie speaker, loads of massive valve amps, military radios, speakers, etc. worth a fortune now!

[Phil G4SPZ]

Originally Posted by thermion

...My grand dad was a real electrical menace, always a dabbler... I inherited all the stuff...

Did the old gent die of natural causes, or electrocution?!

[Peter.N.]

A lot of places were like that in the '50s, people used to repair their TVs on the kitchen table with the help of 'Practical Television' never heard of anyone being electrocuted though. I like the sound of that Hammond organ.

Peter