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Old 11th Aug 2018, 11:34 pm   #21
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Default Re: Astoria Gramophone

Looking good!

The turntable is just an interference fit on the spindle, so should just pull off, otherwise a couple of small wooden wedges either side and smack it on the spindle in the middle.

The spring/s (there may be two in one case), may need to come out for a clean and re-grease, but this can be a dangerous job if you don't know what you're doing, so be careful - lots of information on the net about this.
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 4:40 pm   #22
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Managed to get the turntable off easily and removed years of dust and gunk. I need to get sewing machine oil but have got some copper grease i use for car battery terminals, sgoyld this be ok? I am about to use the motor board and will hopefull6 posts s9me pictures later.
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 7:16 pm   #23
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Apologies for typos in last post. Now removed the motor board and it is fitted with a Thorens motor. The grease is not hard and all moves quietly, except the main spindle which has some movement up and down. See pictures attached. Any comments?
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 10:10 pm   #24
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I think you've misunderstood what I meant in my previous post - it's not the grease you can see, it's the grease that you can't see that's inside the large spring barrels. With you saying that it struggles to play a full record and 'bumps' when winding, it does tend to indicate that the spring coils are binding within the barrels. If you keep trying to wind it you may end up breaking one or both of them. It's a dangerous and specialised job removing and replacing springs as they can fly out suddenly, expanding to the size of a bicycle wheel and can take your fingers off or worse, so you need to take care. Whatever you do, don't mess about with the spindle adjusters at either end of the governor, as if there's still any tension left in the main springs, it can come out of mesh and fly round, stripping the teeth off the gear wheel, and then the motor will be scrap. Also, keep that copper grease well away from the motor, it's full of powdered copper particles and has no place in gramophone motors - let it stay in the garage where it belongs for greasing sliding steel parts on the car. I actually know someone who told me he replaced a gramophone spring and used copper grease and he had nothing but trouble with it after that.
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 10:40 pm   #25
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As a footnote to the above post, try oiling all the motor spindles and gear teeth with light oil such as sewing machine or clock oil and see how it performs then. Also put a drop or two of oil on the felt pad that controls the governor.

Before you even think about doing it, don't try to soak those spring barrels in petrol or similar. Not only will it be dangerous as fumes disperse in the house, but it'll cause the motor to drip greasy oil forever, soaking the internal wooden horn and eventually ruining the horn and cabinet - and it will stink the house out for years to come!

As said, try oiling what you can get at and see how it performs first. As for the up and down play in the spindle, this is sometimes adjustable, but it could be that someone has messed about with it before and lost the ball bearing out of the bottom - check this out as it could be the cause of a lot of the issues.

Don't dismantle anything until you're absolutely sure that the main springs are fully wound down.
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 11:20 pm   #26
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I think you've misunderstood what I meant in my previous post - it's not the grease you can see, it's the grease that you can't see that's inside the large spring barrels. With you saying that it struggles to play a full record and 'bumps' when winding, it does tent to indicate that the spring coils are binding within the barrels. If you keep trying to wind it you may end up breaking one or both of them. It's a dangerous and specialised job removing and replacing springs as they can fly out suddenly, expanding to the size of a bicycle wheel and can take your fingers off or worse, so you need to take care. Whatever you do, don't mess about with the spindle adjusters at either end of the governor, as if there's still any tension left in the main springs, it can come out of mesh and fly round, stripping the teeth off the gear wheel, and then the motor will be scrap. Also, keep that copper grease well away from the motor, it's full of powdered copper particles and has no place in gramophone motors - let it stay in the garage where it belongs for greasing sliding steel parts on the car. I actually know someone who told me he replaced a gramophone spring and used copper grease and he had nothing but trouble with it after that.
Yes you are quite right. I have read up on changing the springs and have realised it’s not for the feint harted. The copper grease had already gone back to the garage. I feel that in the light of the very low price I paid for it, it’s worth having sorted professionally. I have found Tim Weeks web site The Gramaphone Guru and he is only a 20 min drive from me. I will be dropping him an email. Let you know what happens. I do value my fingers and parts!

The cabinet contains a wooden horn, none of it that well made, but I’m enjoying the challenge. Will take a look at the sound box tommorrow.
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Old 12th Aug 2018, 11:28 pm   #27
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Originally Posted by Techman View Post
As a footnote to the above post, try oiling all the motor spindles and gear teeth with light oil such as sewing machine or clock oil and see how it performs then. Also put a drop or two of oil on the felt pad that controls the governor.

Before you even think about doing it, don't try to soak those spring barrels in petrol or similar. Not only will it be dangerous as fumes disperse in the house, but it'll cause the motor to drip greasy oil forever, soaking the internal wooden horn and eventually ruining the horn and cabinet - and it will stink the house out for years to come!

As said, try oiling what you can get at and see how it performs first. As for the up and down play in the spindle, this is sometimes adjustable, but it could be that someone has messed about with it before and lost the ball bearing out of the bottom - check this out as it could be the cause of a lot of the issues.

Don't dismantle anything until you're absolutely sure that the main springs are fully wound down.
Thanks, I do appreciate your advice. I need to get some sewing machine oil, and do the minimum I can with that. The brake lever is very primitive! Just a rubber bung on springy metal strip welded to a cam! But it almost works. The beize on the turntable is just dirty and a stiff brush cleaned 50% of it. The rest looks like rust from the turn table.
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 9:13 pm   #28
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Followed your advice, oiled all spindles and bearings, and where the main spindle enters the motor. After a rew turns of the handle, there was no noise, the noise that I suspected came from the spindle bearing now gone. With the turntable in place it was almost silent, that was after a full wind. Next step will be to reassemble and see if the weight of the tone arm effects the speed at all. If it does it may be ‘spring’ time
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Old 13th Aug 2018, 10:30 pm   #29
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Sounds promising, fingers crossed you may be lucky and won't have to have the springs removed, the 'under-load' test will confirm whether you will have to or not or not.
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Old 14th Aug 2018, 8:37 pm   #30
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Unfortunately although it’s very quiet it can only play just over half a 10” record so it looks like I will need a new spring
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 12:19 am   #31
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It could be that it needs new springs (there's two of them), but usually it's because of hardened grease within them. I've actually got a gramophone which sometimes struggles on certain records, but doesn't show any of the usual symptoms of a binding spring. It's only a single spring motor and to me it feels a little too 'light' when winding, so I suspect this may actually have a weak spring, probably caused by being left in storage for over fifty years in a fully wound state.

I've had a busy evening, the person that I mentioned in post #18, needed a repair to a small radio transceiver, which I did for him tonight and he brought with him that table model gramophone as a gift. I can also have that HMV cabinet one if I want to go and pick it up. It's at a friends house as he's got no room for it at his own house. I said I'd take a look at that tape recorder for him as well (silly me), goodness knows what I'm going to do with that cabinet gramophone, but never turn down a gift, although it's really in payment for these repairs and you can't beat a bit of gramophone fun I suppose!

Below are pictures of the first of the free gifts. It's got two winding holes, so I suspect it's not the original motor. I've not opened it up to look inside yet, but apparently half the governor is missing.
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Old 15th Aug 2018, 8:13 pm   #32
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That gramaphone is identical to my ‘Astoria’ down to the speed control and crude brake. The only difference is one is floor standing. Bet it has a Thorens motor. I have found a guy called The Gramophone Guru who is a 20 min drive from me. He is going to fit a new spring in the Astoria and says he can repair the Columbia type 9 sound box from the Grafonola 117a.

I know what you mean. I do PC and MAC repairs in a small way, and I often get paid with the old left overs, or the 12 year old PC! Not as much fun as a gramophone
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Old 17th Aug 2018, 2:25 am   #33
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Yes, it is a Thorens motor. It doesn't say anywhere on it that can be seen, but Thorens are quite distinctive. They're not that well thought of in the wind up gramophone community and the ones in yours and mine here are very much of a muchness, but Thorens did make some more substantial motors with heavy chromed back plates and a special silent ratchet on the winder. This device had its own problems as it operated a bit like a traditional car handbrake ratchet, where you hold the button in to prevent the 'clicking'. Unfortunately, it had a little device to hold the ratchet off the teeth which could be a little slow and if you catch it wrong as you release the winding handle it can miss the tooth and fly round damaging the rest of the teeth, which after a few times of this will cause the ratchet to become unreliable and needing the teeth re-profiling.

The motor in mine has been fitted to replace probably another Thorens motor that had broken (probably it was single spring and it had broken) as the other fittings look original and are typical Thorens. The turntable (or platter, if you like) I think is original from the previous motor as it's not a good fit on the shaft taper, there's also a little side play in the top spindle bearing, but the turntable will really need some shimming to make it sit properly if that motor is to be kept on the machine. It also sits too high due to no damper/spacers being fitted and it has those same ridiculously long bolts like yours that nearly touch the spring gear, except two of mine are missing. In many ways this gramophone is a piece of junk. Even if it was completely original it would be a bit nasty in the way it's constructed. But, the same can be said of many of these 'no-name' type gramophones that are made for furniture stores etc. and have the generic hardware bought in from such as Thorens - they're the Crosley and GPO of the 1920s and 30s, but there's still something about them and we like them all the same as an interesting vintage item.

The pictures below show how the motor has been fitted by some DIY person from another age. I think it's actually been fitted very slightly too far forward to bring the rim of the platter rim nearer the brake as I suspect there was an 'over' rim on it that has been removed and lost before the modification. This has made the motor so hard up against the side of the horn plywood that you can see it's pushed the end of it out of its groove in the wood. Note the interesting nut and bolt repair/replacement outer spring fixing stud on one of the spring casings, indicating that the springs have been out or replaced at some time and the stud was broken. I don't think Thorens are particularly noted for suffering from hardened grease, so it's probable that lack of power from a motor could well be down to weak springs. I personally would advise not throwing too much money at one of these gramophones, although as you say, you bought yours cheap so you can at least spend a few quid on it.

I plan to go and collect that HMV fairly soon as it's apparently outside round the back of the persons friends house with a 'tarp' slung over it due to him not having room for it either. He says it's a bit rough, his actual words were that it looked like it had come out of an abandoned house, so I'm not expecting much, but if it's scrap at least it'll be good for parts as the motor is apparently good and the motors used in that model I seem to think are quite nice.
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Old 17th Aug 2018, 2:42 am   #34
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I've had a look at the tone arm hardware and cleaned it up a bit. It's fairly obviouse what needs replacing and you may have noticed on a previous picture that one of what's called the stylus pivot balancing springs and fixing screws (well that's what I call them anyway) was missing. The screw had been snapped off, so I've extracted the broken stud so as to fit a possible replacement - daft as it would seem, it would probably work alright even with this spring and screw missing, although it's not ideal.

Although I'm sure the brake and speed control are original, those fixing screws on the speed control are particularly nasty being round headed types as the Thorens speed control plate is designed for countersunk screw types.
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Old 17th Aug 2018, 10:21 pm   #35
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Looks as if your motor needs a bit of work. The motor board appears to have more holes, which is odd. Certainly the speed control screws are wrong as mine still has th3 original countersunk screws. I’m taking the motor for a new spring tommorrow. This will cost £30 so it’s still cheap. Once I’m happy with the motor I’ll spen time on the cabinet. I have some scratch remover for the few marks on the cabinet, will then use linseed oil. The lid will need more work, so some 000 wire wool and a light use of the scratch remover or dye then the linseed. Will post on the result of my visit to The Gramophone Guru tommorrow evening.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 2:16 am   #36
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That sounds like an extremely reasonable price for the fitting of a new spring, so well worth it. I'm guessing this is being done by the person you mentioned.

My motor certainly does need some work due to the missing governor parts. The good thing is that both of the main springs seem to be good. I've had it fully wound and after releasing the speed control from the governor disc that's still in place, the motor went like the clappers!

The motor board has extra holes from where the original motor was fitted.

Earlier today (well yesterday now), I had a long and deep search of the loft for possible gramophone spares. I was sure I remembered having a governor somewhere, also some complete motors. I found the governor, which is a rare survivor from my first ever gramophone that I had as a child many years ago, and broken up by me as a child! I was hoping to use the springs and bobs from it. Unfortunately, they're a completely different fitting to Thorens one and would need quite some modification to even attempt to make them work. I also don't have any motors with the correct winder and speed control orientation to replace the motor that's in the gramophone. Looking at it, I think I do actually have the exact replacement motor, but it's already in a very small portable gramophone that was full of woodworm and disintegrating, that I 'semi' restored a while ago, and is featured in a past thread on this forum. It would be questionable to destroy that gramophone for the sake of this one, also I do use the small portable when away with the classic caravan, although that's not very often.

I've removed a very similar governor from another motor and the plan is to see if the springs and bob weights can be transferred to the other governor. I can't use the actual braking control disc from this other governor as it's got a lump out of it due to it being made from 'monkey metal', which I'd forgotten about until I noticed it earlier and was probably the reason why this motor was retired from service.

Is this gramophone worth all the trouble of trying to get it going? Well to be truthful, no it's not, but I've started, so I'm going to see how far I get with it. I've also found that the winding handle with that motor will work with the motor in this gramophone, so that's a bonus too, although it won't fit through the original hole surround/guide, albeit that this is redundant at the moment due to there being a larger hole drilled in the back of the cabinet for the different motor!

Below are pictures showing the two motors side by side with the governors removed and the other governor that I can't use at this time. Also a picture showing the chunk missing out of the 'monkey metal' governor disc - this same thing can happen to those 'monkey metal' sound boxes too. The last picture is of that HMV 145 cabinet gramophone that I picked up earlier on in the evening, and although it's all there other than the winding handle which I haven't got a spare of, the cabinet exterior is in a lot worse shape than yours is, with lifting and damaged veneer, so what its future will be, I don't know at this stage until I've had a proper look at it in the daylight - It's consigned to the garage for the time being. However, HMV are a good make as regards gramophones, so it may be worth some work, we'll have to see just how bad it really is.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 9:25 pm   #37
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Took the motor for its refurb today. Started on the cabinet. Some 000 wire wool on the lid and a thorough clean, followed by a cost of dark scratch remover. Wow looking good, I think a few more and it will be ready for beeswax.
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Old 18th Aug 2018, 9:31 pm   #38
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So what is actually being done to your motor, as it has two springs in it, is it having one replaced only or is it having the ones that are in it removed, cleaned and then reinstalled?
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Old 14th Oct 2018, 10:15 am   #39
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After a while this is now going fairly well. The cabinet now looks much better. Does any one know how to replace the turntable felt?
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Old 14th Oct 2018, 11:47 am   #40
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Is this gramophone worth all the trouble of trying to get it going? Well to be truthful, no it's not, but I've started, so I'm going to see how far I get with it.
I restored one of these some time ago and once finished it sounded very good and louder than most others I've heard. After cleaning and lubricating the motor would play 3 consecutive sides of 10" records.

Barry, Audio 1950, advised me of a procedure to accurately cut new felt that worked like a charm and was the final stage for making it look like new.

Good luck with it.

Jim
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