Relocating butler bell system

[ash_scotland]

Google has brought me here.

I have queries in two parts related to the butler bell system in my house.

1) I'm needing to relocate the white gloss unit. I have traced cable entry from above, and know where I am to move it to. I'm just looking for experience on what materials I need.
I was going to go 1mm 12core X2 and wago box but now think this is over board. I was thinking it may be 2core per bell (so 20ways in total for the 10bell). Having a look at what enters the conduits there's 12 in total and they appear quite rigid flat cables, maybe suggesting twin.
This group has also previously suggested solder seal connectors, or crimps. Any preferred method? I was going to go wago due to bs7671 but this might be for mains only.

It could be a case I won't know until I start taking it apart.

2) the medium box will ring constantly when on, no actuators vibrate. This to me suggests a short somewhere local. Also having a look is suggestive of someone making previous attempts - missing screws, damaged heads. In fact the actuator housing has circuits bridged, you can see one going left to right. The connector for the common is left end on the right bank.

Any starters what to look for?

[Station X]

Wiring diagram here:-

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1446187&postcount=13

You have a bell transformer rather than a battery. Regarding the continuous ringing, it's possible one of the bell pushes is stuck in the ON position, in which case an indicator flag will move and stick when the transformer is turned on.

[ash_scotland]

Hi thanks,
Make sense regarding the diagram, upped it and expanded to three to ensure I'm correct. What I am perplexed about (and can only base this off the one I can open) if there is only cable going power the accentuators then they must combine before this point and the only place left to do so would be behind the board.

Nothing vibrates or signals, and if a bell push was stuck then it would also be faulting to the other board (or boards if it was an external door)

I've also since opened up behind a bell switch and it is the same cable I am seeing feeding down into the wall from above.

Although I'm perplexed how the systems could be linked.

There is one room with two bell switches so that could be why there are 12 cables I can see.

Any idea what the box is I have opened?

[Silicon]

In theory, at the Indicator box you need one wire for each indicator and a common wire.

At each push button you need two wires.

I have seen single core cotton insulated wires under the floorboards running in wooden trunking.

Originally there may have been a wire going from each push button to the Indicator unit.

Another wire from each push button might have made its way to a Leclanche cell in the cellar.
They may have been joined together where appropriate to save money on cabling.

A second wire from the Leclanche cell would then go to the indicator unit to act as the common or return wire.

Your system may be wired differently if it is a more recent installation that uses a bell transformer.

It could be an old system that has been modified to use a bell transformer.

How many metres are you going to move the indicator unit?

Is the 2 Way indicator powered from the Ten way indicator bell transformer?

[Station X]

It's not easy to say what's what from your pictures, but judging by the pictures in post #1 the ten indicator and seven indicator boards are entirely separate systems.

Each of these installations seems to consist of the board itself, a bell, a mains transformer, a switch controlling the mains supply to the transformer and another box which I don't recognise. Could this be a termination box where cables are joined?

I don't know how the two indicator board is powered, but I doubt it's by a battery as it would have worn out years ago and you would have noticed.

These really are very simple units and a bit of continuity testing with a meter on Ohms range will soon show how things are wired, whether push buttons are short-circuit or inoperative etc.

Picture 3 in post #1 shows 8 terminations ie one for each of the 7 indicators and one common which will be connected to the bus bar running horizontally below the top row of indicators.

Picture 2 in post #3 appears to be a pattress box let into the wall, a two core cable comes in at the top, but I can't see what the wires are connected to. Picture looks like a push switch?

[Silicon]

The third photo in post No. 3 may be a rewire-able fuse.

Photo No.2 may show a pair of cotton insulated conductors in a lead sheath.
I hope both items are not carrying mains voltage.

I would start by labelling the wires operating the indicator coils i.e. 'Bathroom', 'Bedroom 2'.

Looking at photo 3 in post No.1 (the 7 way indicator box), I think I can see links between the brass terminals and also 2 wires going to one terminal.
This seems strange but there may be a reason for it.

If you still have the bell ringing constantly when you power up the 7 way Indicator box you should disconnect some of the wires.

Leave the 'Common' wire connected. Disconnect half of the indicator coil wires.

Apply power. If the bell rings continuously, the problem is in the circuits still connected.

Disconnect those one by one until you stop the bell.

[bionicmerlin]

Be careful. Those porcelain rewirable fuses are normally used on the mains side of the transformer. Again the mains supply could be wired in VIR ( rubber cable) as the set up looks very old .
If that’s a picture of the bell push removed it’s unusual to see twin VIR cable . Normally they used single core cotton cables for the bell pushes as they worked on low voltage. Andy

[ash_scotland]

Thanks everyone, a lot to try and answer to respond to

Yes there's the patres box with bell button removed.

I thought it may have been a rewirable fuse, but it felt like it was too thick.

The 6ways bell system, may have solved it. It's never worked. Our attic is stairs up and fully floored, presumed this might have been a maids area when not in the kitchen hence a bell system for the ground floor. Although larder/cloakrm always threw me and put it down to a misunderstanding it should be bathroom on first.
But I recon it's a house alarm/burglar alarm system. Had windows replaced and there was two core found when removing the old ones. The front door has a "ball switch" that was connected (I took it down and gave the brass a polish, removed old paint etc). So burglar system that's separate, must be only a night time open/closed system.
Thank you whoever said about being two separate systems
. I never really questioned why it would have two lots of power, but it's been like me of those suddenly it clicks.

Presume the 2 way is powered by the 10way.

Moving the 10way about 2.5m.

[Station X]

Originally Posted by Silicon

The third photo in post No. 3 may be a rewire-able fuse.

Agreed. I assume it's on the mains voltage side of the transformer. Both of the large indicator panels have one.

[ash_scotland]

Any suggestions for cable size/equipment or best to size with prexisting? If it's only 8V 1mm feels excessive.

[Silicon]

For the low voltage circuits I would try some 4 pair (8 wire) telephone cable but make sure it is made with solid copper and not copper covered steel.
Alternatively use 8 core alarm cable.

Both of these are available from electrical suppliers and priced per metre.

[ash_scotland]

Is tinned copper ok for alarm cable?

[ex 2 Base]

Tinned copper is OK for alarm system, why not look out for a Leclanche cells, then you are OFF the grid. Leclanche cell were much used on the railways.

[G6Tanuki]

"Cat6" premises wiring data cable is another suggestion.

It is supplied in 100 metre drums. The specification doesn't allow for 'in the wall' joins, so there are plenty of spools of the stuff as remnants with 20 or 30 metres or more to be had from cabling contractors.

You don't need to comply with the requirements for Gigabit Ethernet so you can happily join such premises wiring cables as needed.

[ash_scotland]

Originally Posted by G6Tanuki

"Cat6" premises wiring data cable is another suggestion.

It is supplied in 100 metre drums. The specification doesn't allow for 'in the wall' joins, so there are plenty of spools of the stuff as remnants with 20 or 30 metres or more to be had from cabling contractors.

You don't need to comply with the requirements for Gigabit Ethernet so you can happily join such premises wiring cables as needed.

Not sure if it was this forum or another, but somewhere did suggest solder seal connectors, which is tempting.

Originally Posted by ex 2 Base

Tinned copper is OK for alarm system, why not look out for a Leclanche cells, then you are OFF the grid. Leclanche cell were much used on the railways.

It's changing what is there and I know works, and how everything looks purposeful on the larger board is suggestive the transformer is original.

Originally Posted by G6Tanuki

"Cat6" premises wiring data cable is another suggestion.

It is supplied in 100 metre drums. The specification doesn't allow for 'in the wall' joins, so there are plenty of spools of the stuff as remnants with 20 or 30 metres or more to be had from cabling contractors.

You don't need to comply with the requirements for Gigabit Ethernet so you can happily join such premises wiring cables as needed.

Ha ha - glad you mention that, since my downstairs workshop is coupled up to the network via a 5 amp choc-block junction strip. Still works fine, despite a layer of swallow gunge!

[julie_m]

Nooooo! The first rule of dodgy connections in network cables is, you don't jinx them by talking about them!

[ash_scotland]

I thought I took enough photos to guide me.

Does this look correct?

Dots with X is where the wires connect onto the "board."

Fd2 & bd2 is the second board, which I wasn't going to fully draw hence the second inductor.

If I follow L or N up around my circuit i get back to "power in." I think what threw me is the combination of 4 way (with the T and ?, later was a query to myself) before finally realising it could be viewed as a 1in 3out.