Flangeless / Pancake Spools

[DMcMahon]

I did not realise that flangeless / pancake spools go back so far, as per example here in 1959.

[paulsherwin]

They have always been a professional format.

[Ted Kendall]

The single flange spool was a feature of the original Magnetophon, and the AEG turnbuckle dates at least from the K4 (ca. 1937). The NAB spool and hub were Ampex developments, introduced with the 300 model around 1949. German Radio stuck with flangeless hubs and oxide out winding until the end.

[ricard]

It seems the original idea was a hub and a platter, and it wasn't until later that someone realized that a flange on top would be useful to prevent the tape falling of during transportation and storage.

Which begs the question, is the matte backing on professional tapes enough to stop the tape falling off if the reel is held upside down? Depends to a large extent of the tension it has been wound at obviously.

[barrymagrec]

I had enough trouble with 7.25 inch AEG platters to never want to to use platters or pancakes again.

[Ted Kendall]

Originally Posted by ricard

Which begs the question, is the matte backing on professional tapes enough to stop the tape falling off if the reel is held upside down? Depends to a large extent of the tension it has been wound at obviously.

No operator in his right mind would do this - the tape pack would unravel. German Radio managed fine with the appropraite tape types (PER525 and the like) and operator training, but machines designed for platters needed safety features to minimise the effects of tape breakage, including means of swift detection and swifter braking. My M10A is perfectly docile whilst the tension arms are engaged, but should one hit the end stop the braking action is brutally swift - as the tape is not under tension at this point, all that matters is to stop the tape pack as fast as possible - in this case, much less than half a turn.

[DMcMahon]

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

They have always been a professional format.

I should have realised as there are old photos showing them in the "Historical Development of Magnetic Recording" document. For some unknown reason I was thinking that they might have come out around the early 1970s ?

[Ted Kendall]

The first domestic Magnetophon marketed after the war - KL33, I think - used smallish platters - 7-ish inches, by the look of them - and the turnbuckle fixing. Soon afterwards, they joined the rest of Europe in using the trident cine pattern hub. Many domestic machines in the States (and consequently Japan) used the Ampex system of a plain centre spindle and a driving peg.

[ricard]

Is that the reason that tape manufacturers put large-ish holes a few centimeters from the central trident one, e.g.the first picture on this page:

https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/3m_sco...tband_all.html

Of course, in the case of 3M in the pictures here, the holes are also where the tape ends up after being threaded through one of the hub slots, but that wouldn't really warrant a hole; the slot would be enough for that purpose.

[Ted Kendall]

Originally Posted by ricard

Is that the reason that tape manufacturers put large-ish holes a few centimeters from the central trident one?

Exactly so - BASF and Agfa spools also had a suitable hole, although it was covered by the label. The Akai 345 was one of the last machines on the UK market to use this system, and a TEAC R310? (left handed Ampex 300 clone) I once had was about at the same time.

[jamesperrett]

Originally Posted by Ted Kendall

The Akai 345 was one of the last machines on the UK market to use this system, and a TEAC R310? (left handed Ampex 300 clone) I once had was about at the same time.

Until Fostex resurrected the idea with their machines in the late 1980's. Fortunately the tape manufacturers had continued to include the appropriate holes in their reels so it wasn't a problem finding suitable reels.

[ricard]

Originally Posted by jamesperrett

Until Fostex resurrected the idea with their machines in the late 1980's.

Ooh, that brings back memories of playing and recording in a band with a Fostex A8 or similar! I wonder why they did that? I could understand the initial urge not to rely on those small tridents not breaking off under the forces applied during acceleration and braking, but when the Fostex hit the market, the trident was well proven. (I've only ever seen one or two machines where they have broken off, and probably from misuse rather than anything else).

Interesting that manufacturers still retained the hole (even if often covered by a center label). I suppose it was part of some standard.

[Ted Kendall]

It could have been to do with cost - the A8 series was a radical rethink of how to do personal multitrack with the aim of undercutting TEAC, from where most of the management came.

[barrymagrec]

Ooh, that brings back memories of playing and recording in a band with a Fostex A8 or similar! I wonder why they did that? I could understand the initial urge not to rely on those small tridents not breaking off under the forces applied during acceleration and braking, but when the Fostex hit the market, the trident was well proven. (I've only ever seen one or two machines where they have broken off, and probably from misuse rather than anything else).

It was not unheard of for clumsy users to break the relatively flimsy trident tabs on a Leevers rich, but they were easily replaced.... assuming you had a 6BA tap and tapping drill.

[TIMTAPE]

I've seen a number of reel to reel machines with the reel retainer fitting smashed off. A combination of carelessness, a heavy machine and a waiting door frame. The door frame doesn't seem to care how modest or exotic the machine is.

I've just had my excellent machinist extract the threaded remains of the small retainer screw from reel table of an Otari MX 50, and then actually make up a new screw out of similar stainless. Fortunately one screw was intact so he only needed to copy it.

It used to be easier and cheaper to just order the new parts...

[DMcMahon]

A few days back received a Uher Royal 784 which was shipped in a flimsy cardboard box with no internal packing !

The 784 has quite a strong lid so would offer quite good protection to the reel retainers but when I opened the lid, the 2 spools (both with around 50% tape on each) were loose in the lid with the 2 sheared off reel retainers, pretty sure this must have occurred during shipping and can imagine that if the box had a very strong lateral knock that the weight of the spools could have sheared off the retainers.

They are only plastic trident retainers, am hoping that may be able to repair somehow, have not yet looked at properly.

[Reelman]

That’s sad news David, so annoying to receive something damaged due to careless packaging. It’s not as if you can just order another one. I’m amazed by the poor standard of some sellers, but then again it is a slow and laborious process to package properly especially when there is some weight involved.

I have often wondered why in this so-called “green” era some enterprise has not come up with reusable packaging that you effectively hired and was then reused over and over again. It could come in a range of sizes. Just a thought...

Peter