BSR motor query - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Tractorfan · 26th Mar 2009, 8:30 pm

Hi all, it's me again with another (possibly daft) question.
At the moment I've got, and in the past I've had, various BSR record decks that had the well known shaded pole motor with a 90volt tap for the UL84 & UY85 heaters (haven't we all?) Now, depending on the connections, it will operate on a 240volt supply & give the abovementioned 90volts. Or, it will work on 110volts using the 90volt tap as one of the supply leads.
On a 240volts supply the 90volt and the 110volt windings are in series requiring (I assume) only 200volts. So, is the motor subjected to a 40volt oversupply on 240v? Or is there a 40 volt undersupply on 110v (the "110volt" coil really being wound for 150volts?) The one I've got here seems a bit lacking in torque on start up when fed from 110volts which seems to support my theory. It's new home will be in a French radiogram & run on 220volts so shouldn't suffer low torque. Sorry if I'm rambling a bit here, it's these pills. Nurse!
Cheers de Pete

peter_sol · 27th Mar 2009, 9:19 am

Hi
I think you are wrong in your assumption.
The 240v 90v tap motor was for 240volts only.
The 110v motor had a tap as well but not 90volts

Perhaps someone can look up the specs

Regards

Peter.

Tractorfan · 28th Mar 2009, 7:10 pm

Hi Peter,
I hate to disagree, especially with another Peter

, but this motor sports a paper label stating that for 200-250v supply use the black & brown leads then the black & white leads will give 90v at 0.1A (at 240v). For 100-125v use the white & brown leads & isolate the black lead. So it's definitely dual voltage, this one.
Cheers de Pete

Aitchjay · 14th Apr 2009, 1:11 pm

Hi guys
I am a newbie. Very interested in this topic because I have just bought a BSR UA15 auto change deck which I am trying to run up to check that it works OK. I noticed the motor leads are black, white and brown.

Now, probably very foolishly, I assumed the white lead was earth and connected to a three core supply accordingly. ( I did meter out all the bits I would touch to make sure they weren't live). The motor runs but gets very hot. Any advice please.

Tractorfan · 14th Apr 2009, 6:47 pm

Hi & welcome to our little forum.
The white lead ISN'T an earth

. It's used along with the black lead as a heater supply to feed a UY85 rectifier and (usually) a UL84 output valve. Connect the mains to the black & brown leads and isolate the white one, then connect the earth lead to the steel frame of the motor itself. There's usually a red paper label explaining these leads, but it's probably been lost in the ancient mists of time. I'm surprised that earthing the white lead didn't pop a fuse or trip the earth leakage device.
These motors do tend to run hottish, but not THAT hot!
Hope this helps
Cheers de Pete

Michael Maurice · 14th Apr 2009, 7:34 pm

In the domestic mains electricity supply neutral and earth will at some stage be connected together, possibly at the substation, though not in the house. There should be very little if any voltage between neutral and earth.

By earthing the white lead, you have effectively joined the brown and white leads together and have fed 240V into a motor wired for 130 - 150V.

If you had RCD breakers they should have tripped, if you had old fashioned fuses then they wouldn't have blown as even wired like this as the current would still be quite low.

Disconnect the white lead immediately and isolate this, connect only the brown and black wires to positive and neutral of the mains supply. If you wish to earth anything, then the earth wire should be connected to a suitable point on the record deck metal work. It should NEVER be connected to the motor.

Aitchjay · 14th Apr 2009, 7:45 pm

Thanks for swift reply, Tractorfan. I do feel a bit of a twit.

I later connected to black and brown as you say and all was well - motor runs perfectly. Will now connect earth to motor frame. At the moment the deck is a spare but from what you say, the white lead may be required, if I put it into another player, as a supply to the amplifier?
Although the coil got hot do you think it will have survived? If I put a meter across black and white should I see 90v.

Thanks again

James

Aitchjay · 14th Apr 2009, 7:51 pm

Thanks Michael Maurice.

Have just replied to Tractorfan for his help and thanks also for your info. I note your comment re: earthing. We have got breakers, not fuses, but it didn't trip.

Thanks

James

Michael Maurice · 14th Apr 2009, 9:34 pm

If you connect a meter switched to AC you should see approx 90V across the black and white wires.

Tractorfan · 14th Apr 2009, 9:34 pm

Hi Aitchjay,
No need to feel a twit, it's happened to most of us (certainly me

)at some point in our learning curves, I'm sure

If there were no burning smells and/or escape of the magic smoke then I'm sure the motor will be OK. They made 'em tough in those days. Yes, you should see about 90volts across black & white. The maximum current is 100mA.

Hi, Michael Maurice,
I'm a bit puzzled as to why the motor should never be earthed directly

I agree that the metalwork of the deck should be earthed, but I can't see the harm in earthing the motor frame itself.(Sorry if I'm drifting OT) How about strapping the motor frame & the deck together and earthing them both?

Cheers de Pete

AlanBeckett · 14th Apr 2009, 9:59 pm

de Pete,
I'm not a 'gram person these days, apart from my ancient TD150 in the attic, but my methodology was always to earth the deck metalwork, plus the motor frame if it was rubber mounted onto the deck. However, even that can be interesting if mains Neutral is also connected to the metalwork. Up to three years ago I lived in a house not PMEd and fed from an ancient sub up the road. At times you could find 30volts Neutral to Earth, and as it says above, it's a bad idea to put the road's return current through your own wiring.
Alan

Michael Maurice · 15th Apr 2009, 6:42 am

Sorry if I misled anyone, there is no reason not to earth the motor casing itself, You can indeed strap the motor to the deck earthing both together as Pete has suggested,.

Alan, the wiring to the motor itself should never be in contact with the metalwork of either the motor or the turntable chassis as per Alan's post. Not even years ago was this allowed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Maurice

Disconnect the white lead immediately and isolate this, connect only the brown and black wires to positive and neutral of the mains supply. If you wish to earth anything, then the earth wire should be connected to a suitable point on the record deck metal work. It should NEVER be connected to the motor.

What I meant was that it should never be connected to the motor's wiring. I'm sorry if i didn't make myself clear on this point.

AlanBeckett · 15th Apr 2009, 10:24 am

Michael,
You are correct, my English let me down

, I'll plead it was late. What I meant to say was 'if the mains Neutral becomes connected to the metalwork'. A fault between Line and Earth (metalwork) should trip the protection. A fault between Neutral and Earth can have all sorts of insideous effects without you noticing it.
Alan

Tractorfan · 15th Apr 2009, 8:40 pm

Hi all,
All is now clear re:earthing deck & motor metalwork

Glad that aitchjay's motor is spinning happily and long may it thus continue!
Of course living out here brings its own fun & games with transformerless equipment and tapped motor windings as we usually have reversible two pin unfused plugs on record players, radios & the like, but that's another story (or thread). Thanks to all.
Cheers de Pete

26th Mar 2009, 8:30 pm	#1
Tractorfan Dekatron Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: St. Frajou, l'Isle en Dodon, Haute Garonne, France.(Previously: Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, UK.) Posts: 3,182	BSR motor query Hi all, it's me again with another (possibly daft) question. At the moment I've got, and in the past I've had, various BSR record decks that had the well known shaded pole motor with a 90volt tap for the UL84 & UY85 heaters (haven't we all?) Now, depending on the connections, it will operate on a 240volt supply & give the abovementioned 90volts. Or, it will work on 110volts using the 90volt tap as one of the supply leads. On a 240volts supply the 90volt and the 110volt windings are in series requiring (I assume) only 200volts. So, is the motor subjected to a 40volt oversupply on 240v? Or is there a 40 volt undersupply on 110v (the "110volt" coil really being wound for 150volts?) The one I've got here seems a bit lacking in torque on start up when fed from 110volts which seems to support my theory. It's new home will be in a French radiogram & run on 220volts so shouldn't suffer low torque. Sorry if I'm rambling a bit here, it's these pills. Nurse! Cheers de Pete __________________ "Hello?, Yes, I'm on the train, I might lose the signal soon as we're just going into a tunn..."

27th Mar 2009, 9:19 am	#2
peter_sol Octode Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Welwyn Garden City, Herts. UK. Posts: 1,906	Re: BSR motor query Hi I think you are wrong in your assumption. The 240v 90v tap motor was for 240volts only. The 110v motor had a tap as well but not 90volts Perhaps someone can look up the specs Regards Peter.

28th Mar 2009, 7:10 pm	#3
Tractorfan Dekatron Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: St. Frajou, l'Isle en Dodon, Haute Garonne, France.(Previously: Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, UK.) Posts: 3,182	Re: BSR motor query Hi Peter, I hate to disagree, especially with another Peter, but this motor sports a paper label stating that for 200-250v supply use the black & brown leads then the black & white leads will give 90v at 0.1A (at 240v). For 100-125v use the white & brown leads & isolate the black lead. So it's definitely dual voltage, this one. Cheers de Pete __________________ "Hello?, Yes, I'm on the train, I might lose the signal soon as we're just going into a tunn..."

14th Apr 2009, 1:11 pm	#4
Aitchjay Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: West Sussex Posts: 14	Re: BSR motor query Hi guys I am a newbie. Very interested in this topic because I have just bought a BSR UA15 auto change deck which I am trying to run up to check that it works OK. I noticed the motor leads are black, white and brown. Now, probably very foolishly, I assumed the white lead was earth and connected to a three core supply accordingly. ( I did meter out all the bits I would touch to make sure they weren't live). The motor runs but gets very hot. Any advice please.

14th Apr 2009, 6:47 pm	#5
Tractorfan Dekatron Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: St. Frajou, l'Isle en Dodon, Haute Garonne, France.(Previously: Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, UK.) Posts: 3,182	Re: BSR motor query Hi & welcome to our little forum. The white lead ISN'T an earth. It's used along with the black lead as a heater supply to feed a UY85 rectifier and (usually) a UL84 output valve. Connect the mains to the black & brown leads and isolate the white one, then connect the earth lead to the steel frame of the motor itself. There's usually a red paper label explaining these leads, but it's probably been lost in the ancient mists of time. I'm surprised that earthing the white lead didn't pop a fuse or trip the earth leakage device. These motors do tend to run hottish, but not THAT hot! Hope this helps Cheers de Pete __________________ "Hello?, Yes, I'm on the train, I might lose the signal soon as we're just going into a tunn..."

14th Apr 2009, 7:34 pm	#6
Michael Maurice Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wembley, Middlesex Posts: 7,223	Re: BSR motor query In the domestic mains electricity supply neutral and earth will at some stage be connected together, possibly at the substation, though not in the house. There should be very little if any voltage between neutral and earth. By earthing the white lead, you have effectively joined the brown and white leads together and have fed 240V into a motor wired for 130 - 150V. If you had RCD breakers they should have tripped, if you had old fashioned fuses then they wouldn't have blown as even wired like this as the current would still be quite low. Disconnect the white lead immediately and isolate this, connect only the brown and black wires to positive and neutral of the mains supply. If you wish to earth anything, then the earth wire should be connected to a suitable point on the record deck metal work. It should NEVER be connected to the motor.

14th Apr 2009, 7:45 pm	#7
Aitchjay Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: West Sussex Posts: 14	Re: BSR motor query Thanks for swift reply, Tractorfan. I do feel a bit of a twit. I later connected to black and brown as you say and all was well - motor runs perfectly. Will now connect earth to motor frame. At the moment the deck is a spare but from what you say, the white lead may be required, if I put it into another player, as a supply to the amplifier? Although the coil got hot do you think it will have survived? If I put a meter across black and white should I see 90v. Thanks again James

14th Apr 2009, 7:51 pm	#8
Aitchjay Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: West Sussex Posts: 14	Re: BSR motor query Thanks Michael Maurice. Have just replied to Tractorfan for his help and thanks also for your info. I note your comment re: earthing. We have got breakers, not fuses, but it didn't trip. Thanks James

14th Apr 2009, 9:34 pm	#9
Michael Maurice Moderator Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Wembley, Middlesex Posts: 7,223	Re: BSR motor query If you connect a meter switched to AC you should see approx 90V across the black and white wires.

14th Apr 2009, 9:34 pm	#10
Tractorfan Dekatron Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: St. Frajou, l'Isle en Dodon, Haute Garonne, France.(Previously: Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, UK.) Posts: 3,182	Re: BSR motor query Hi Aitchjay, No need to feel a twit, it's happened to most of us (certainly me)at some point in our learning curves, I'm sure If there were no burning smells and/or escape of the magic smoke then I'm sure the motor will be OK. They made 'em tough in those days. Yes, you should see about 90volts across black & white. The maximum current is 100mA. Hi, Michael Maurice, I'm a bit puzzled as to why the motor should never be earthed directly I agree that the metalwork of the deck should be earthed, but I can't see the harm in earthing the motor frame itself.(Sorry if I'm drifting OT) How about strapping the motor frame & the deck together and earthing them both? Cheers de Pete __________________ "Hello?, Yes, I'm on the train, I might lose the signal soon as we're just going into a tunn..." Last edited by Tractorfan; 14th Apr 2009 at 9:36 pm. Reason: Michael Maurice beat me to it re: 90volts on B&W lead

14th Apr 2009, 9:59 pm	#11
AlanBeckett Rest in Peace Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Burton upon Trent, East Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 1,686	Re: BSR motor query de Pete, I'm not a 'gram person these days, apart from my ancient TD150 in the attic, but my methodology was always to earth the deck metalwork, plus the motor frame if it was rubber mounted onto the deck. However, even that can be interesting if mains Neutral is also connected to the metalwork. Up to three years ago I lived in a house not PMEd and fed from an ancient sub up the road. At times you could find 30volts Neutral to Earth, and as it says above, it's a bad idea to put the road's return current through your own wiring. Alan

15th Apr 2009, 10:24 am	#13
AlanBeckett Rest in Peace Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Burton upon Trent, East Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 1,686	Re: BSR motor query Michael, You are correct, my English let me down , I'll plead it was late. What I meant to say was 'if the mains Neutral becomes connected to the metalwork'. A fault between Line and Earth (metalwork) should trip the protection. A fault between Neutral and Earth can have all sorts of insideous effects without you noticing it. Alan

15th Apr 2009, 8:40 pm	#14
Tractorfan Dekatron Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: St. Frajou, l'Isle en Dodon, Haute Garonne, France.(Previously: Ellesmere Port, Cheshire, UK.) Posts: 3,182	Re: BSR motor query Hi all, All is now clear re:earthing deck & motor metalwork Glad that aitchjay's motor is spinning happily and long may it thus continue! Of course living out here brings its own fun & games with transformerless equipment and tapped motor windings as we usually have reversible two pin unfused plugs on record players, radios & the like, but that's another story (or thread). Thanks to all. Cheers de Pete __________________ "Hello?, Yes, I'm on the train, I might lose the signal soon as we're just going into a tunn..."