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Old 20th Jun 2020, 6:03 pm   #41
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

I myself buy good stuff for the day job or something that I know I am going to be using a lot, CK, Stanley, Knippex, Eclipse, Starret and some Wera branded stuff, I still have some Kamasa stuff too, however if I only need something for a one-off job I tend to buy low to mid range stuff, I also bought some cheapish stuff for using on less salubrious sites where pilfering and theft was rife.
Horses for courses as they say
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 6:08 pm   #42
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

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Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
It's not as cut and dry as that, not 90%. It's not just engineers who want good quality tools, lots of others do too. I know lots of people who you wouldn't class as engineers but want good quality tools.
While I agree for the most part, it's horses for courses. Buying cheap usually means buying twice, but what if it's a tool you might only use once? Is it worse to mackle along without the right, if imperfect tool? I have a complete mix of tools. Bosch professional power tools to Lidl / Aldi stuff which is quite variable (the Aldi stuff comes from Rugeley BTW).

As a more work oriented example, I used to work in a place where many people need to borrow a meter from our lab. They basically needed to know 'is there a 12v supply or not' or 'is the fuse gone or not' or similar things that even a basic bulb tester could do. Maplin (remember them) were doing an offer on very basic multimeters that I wouldn't put near anything over 20v, and wouldn't trust within maybe even 20% but to tell the difference between 12v and 0v were entirely adequate. I had them marked 'indication only'. I also made sure there were 'proper' decent meters available when really needed. It meant I could quadruple the number of loan meters available for less than £100 and therefore without the finance department being remotely interested. My successors immediatly binned all of these and replaced them with expensive Flukes (no idea how they got finance approval) which they pay a fortune every year to have calibrated even though they are still just being used to confirm presence or absence of continuity or supply.

As always, if you know the limitations of your tools, it's often OK to keep with the cheap ones, though I have purged my Tandy and Christmas Cracker, cheese screwdrivers.

EDIT:
Oh and should add that I've been discussing mechanical tools with my Nephew. He's an apprentice and needs to buy an impact gun, ratchet, torque wrench, breaker bar for work. It's very different because his tools will be his livelihood. In his case, the advice buy cheap, buy twice will apply, and Halfords Advanced is probably as cheap as he should go given quite how expensive Snap On are.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 6:21 pm   #43
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

Ah Snap on you need a second mortgage for that! I wouldn't dare let them out of the house!!

I must admit though I am a bit of a 'Tool Tart' when it comes to my work gear, I must resist!!!

I did get rid of my Hilti gear (sold!) and bought Bosch professional (blue) stuff instead, I could never let the Hilti stuff out of my sight, the stress just wasn't worth it in the end.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 7:12 pm   #44
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

Quote:
Originally Posted by duncanlowe View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
It's not as cut and dry as that, not 90%. It's not just engineers who want good quality tools, lots of others do too. I know lots of people who you wouldn't class as engineers but want good quality tools.
While I agree for the most part, it's horses for courses. Buying cheap usually means buying twice, but what if it's a tool you might only use once? Is it worse to mackle along without the right, if imperfect tool? I have a complete mix of tools. Bosch professional power tools to Lidl / Aldi stuff which is quite variable (the Aldi stuff comes from Rugeley BTW).

As a more work oriented example, I used to work in a place where many people need to borrow a meter from our lab. They basically needed to know 'is there a 12v supply or not' or 'is the fuse gone or not' or similar things that even a basic bulb tester could do. Maplin (remember them) were doing an offer on very basic multimeters that I wouldn't put near anything over 20v, and wouldn't trust within maybe even 20% but to tell the difference between 12v and 0v were entirely adequate. I had them marked 'indication only'. I also made sure there were 'proper' decent meters available when really needed. It meant I could quadruple the number of loan meters available for less than £100 and therefore without the finance department being remotely interested. My successors immediatly binned all of these and replaced them with expensive Flukes (no idea how they got finance approval) which they pay a fortune every year to have calibrated even though they are still just being used to confirm presence or absence of continuity or supply.

As always, if you know the limitations of your tools, it's often OK to keep with the cheap ones, though I have purged my Tandy and Christmas Cracker, cheese screwdrivers.

EDIT:
Oh and should add that I've been discussing mechanical tools with my Nephew. He's an apprentice and needs to buy an impact gun, ratchet, torque wrench, breaker bar for work. It's very different because his tools will be his livelihood. In his case, the advice buy cheap, buy twice will apply, and Halfords Advanced is probably as cheap as he should go given quite how expensive Snap On are.
My sentiments entirely. For example, a screwdriver has to be well made from good, hard, toughened steel with a strong handle that will last. On the other hand, a bandsaw that you use once a year maybe, the cheapie from Aldi is fine - I just bought one!

So, handtools and stuff that irregardless of how much you use it takes a pounding (often high pressure, metal against metal), need to be tough and pro quality. A seldom used electric power tool may not need to be of pro quality for it to be useful for the hobbyist.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 7:26 pm   #45
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

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Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
The point is, we are being swamped with low quality tools, and it's often the poor quality stuff that you're faced with on the high street.
Ultimately the market decides.

There will always be top grade stuff and a market for it but it will command an appropriate price. For the pro-user his outlay will be paid back many times. Snap-on salesmen seem to earn a good living from a regular round of customers - they have their particular 'patch'.

There will always be poor stuff at a cheap price and useable stuff in between. Horses for courses.

A chap in business for several decades once said to me that the aim of a business was to deliver the lowest quality acceptable to the market. After I'd done a double take at what I considered a thoroughly cynical statement I realised he probably was right. The trick is knowing your market and what it will accept/tolerate. If you want to grow your business it would seem that you just have to offer a little better quality than your competitors for the same price point and build your reputation within your chosen market. (Of course some reputable brands diminish in quality whilst living on reputation - see threads passim.)

For us 'amateur punters' I guess you just have to keep your ear to the ground to get in the know as to what is good value for a given level of use. Some makes mentioned on this thread I've not heard of before - useful information.

I own some 'budget' equipment that only a few years ago existed only in pro workshops. My versions probably wouldn't last a month in a professional situation but I'm probably never going to demand the equivalent a month's work from them. However, they're just jolly handy to have when I need them especially for those odd tasks accomplished in a few minutes that years ago meant hours of work by hand and the sweat of my brow.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 7:48 pm   #46
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

It is also a lot harder these days too, for example CK a (half?) decent German manufacturer does have quite a range of decent tools, these were/still are my go to source for fairly decent gear, particularly as most wholesalers and CPC have good stocks of their range, however some of their bottom end stuff is in the Rolson or Duratool bracket except at CK prices! (Identical products apart from the badge!) which I have not been too pleased about!
Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind buying either Duratool or Rolson stuff for 'one-offs' they are cheap and perfectly ok for the immediate task in hand, sure they are not pro gear by any stretch and wouldn't last a week in such a use, but for their intended purpose (one off) and cost they are 'adequate', what I did object to was paying premium prices for such stuff.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 8:02 pm   #47
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

It's also worth bearing in mind that not everything from a particular brand matches what you expect. A previous post has alluded to this where sometimes brands 'adopt' generic stuff and brand it as their own, which we are are familiar with given some of the major TV brands selling Vestel stuff as their own, for example. I was very dissapointed with a Panasonic TV we bought that performs nothing like any of the others we have in the house.

But then again, even when they produce stuff themselves it doesn't mean that it neccesarily matches their usual. For example I tend to favour Bosch Professional cordless tools. Prior to the brushless versions Bosch tools in the pro (blue) range had replaceable brushes because that was usually what killed them in pro use. I did make the mistake of buying one tool with typical symptoms of worn out brushes expecting a simple repair only to find that the particular model had none replaceable brushes, and an almost impossible to source replacement motor. Buyer beware, assume nothing!
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 8:43 pm   #48
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junk Box Nick View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehertz View Post
The point is, we are being swamped with low quality tools, and it's often the poor quality stuff that you're faced with on the high street.
Ultimately the market decides.

There will always be top grade stuff and a market for it but it will command an appropriate price. For the pro-user his outlay will be paid back many times. Snap-on salesmen seem to earn a good living from a regular round of customers - they have their particular 'patch'.

There will always be poor stuff at a cheap price and useable stuff in between. Horses for courses.

A chap in business for several decades once said to me that the aim of a business was to deliver the lowest quality acceptable to the market. After I'd done a double take at what I considered a thoroughly cynical statement I realised he probably was right. The trick is knowing your market and what it will accept/tolerate. If you want to grow your business it would seem that you just have to offer a little better quality than your competitors for the same price point and build your reputation within your chosen market. (Of course some reputable brands diminish in quality whilst living on reputation - see threads passim.)

For us 'amateur punters' I guess you just have to keep your ear to the ground to get in the know as to what is good value for a given level of use. Some makes mentioned on this thread I've not heard of before - useful information.

I own some 'budget' equipment that only a few years ago existed only in pro workshops. My versions probably wouldn't last a month in a professional situation but I'm probably never going to demand the equivalent a month's work from them. However, they're just jolly handy to have when I need them especially for those odd tasks accomplished in a few minutes that years ago meant hours of work by hand and the sweat of my brow.
I feel my point is being missed or maybe I need to explain more. In this context, 'horses for courses' - to me - embraces a range of qualities to cater for the occasional user through to the pro, daily user. It does not, and should not encompass tools that are so bad as to be useless, like the previously described screwdriver that is so soft that it bends the first time it is used on anything but an already loose screw. That is not a horse for any course other than the rip off guy selling it and the fool buying it (we've all been there). I'm talking Christmas cracker quality stuff that is often seen in polythene multipacks and sold in cheap jack high street shops and markets. That's my point, there's too much absolute, truly useless rubbish out there! The horses for courses bit I agree with - starting at a level that satisfies occasional but fully functional use without structural failure.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 8:47 pm   #49
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

I still have CK cutters from when I started work,1961 though the insulation is getting a little bit done.
Not to mention a nick in the cutters when I went through a connected to the mains slot meter,though it is great for stripping insulation!
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 10:21 pm   #50
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

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The point is, we are being swamped with low quality tools, and it's often the poor quality stuff that you're faced with on the high street.
Yes but as already pointed out, the shops are ordering and selling what people are mostly buying. The Chinese will make whatever quality or price point you ask for. They are merely producing what the majority of distributors are ordering, because unfortunately so many people confuse cheap, with good value for money.
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Old 20th Jun 2020, 10:57 pm   #51
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

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I'm talking Christmas cracker quality stuff that is often seen in polythene multipacks and sold in cheap jack high street shops and markets. That's my point, there's too much absolute, truly useless rubbish out there! The horses for courses bit I agree with - starting at a level that satisfies occasional but fully functional use without structural failure.
I don't think we're so very far apart in our views. However, there's always been tat and there'll always be tat because basically there is a market for tat, even if it's just a transient 'educational' right of passage of learning to be more discerning.

There is the Sale of Goods Act if something is not of merchantable quality but who's going to bother for a pack of screwdrivers that cost a pound? And try enforcing that on Del Boy down the market - if you can find him! I know that if I'm going to buy from the Sunday market ironmongery stall I must invoke caveat emptor.

At one of the places I do some work a market trader type chap comes round in his van selling tools. I've bought a few things off him. Some of the brands I don't recognise but he doesn't sell rubbish because he knows he'd get severe earache next time he called.

To me, whilst we often complain that some products don't have the longevity of things bought decades ago there seems a lot less outright rubbish out there than there used to be - though perhaps I'm not looking in the right places! I'm trying to remember the last thing I bought that failed out of the packet - whatever it was it was probably from a well-known store and I had my money back.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 7:59 am   #52
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Sale of Goods Act was done away with five years ago, so unwise to quote that in a dispute! It was replaced by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which is actually relevant to modern commerce, having specifics about software downloads etc contained therein.

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...mer-rights-act
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 11:02 am   #53
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I have a fair assortment of ex bt tools. Knipex long nose pliers and sidecutters are particularly good. The No. * series of screwdrivers are excellent as well. But, BT could afford decent tools.
I find that the cheapo large screwdtiver can't be found when needed to prise the lid off a paint tin and then use it to stir the paint. Just a decent one that is far above such abuse.
Rob
I still have a fair amount of my old BT stuff, including most of my test gear, it's funny what 'falls into your car boot' when you leave a firm, lol.we had a storeman and he was a pain, he wouldn't give you anything unless you knew the BT part number, you could know the exact length and tip size of a screwdriver, but if you didn't know it was for example, 'screwdriver instrument no 3' you were not getting one, as you say they were good tools though.
A mate of mine still works there, he's an inspector and tests and inspects tools and kit. He told me that BT buy so much stuff that they get massive discounts.
several years ago he wanted a new electric drill, on the normal market they were about £250, he asked his boss if he could buy one through work and he did, it cost him about £120! Some saving.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 11:15 am   #54
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It is also a lot harder these days too, for example CK a (half?) decent German manufacturer does have quite a range of decent tools, these were/still are my go to source for fairly decent gear, particularly as most wholesalers and CPC have good stocks of their range, however some of their bottom end stuff is in the Rolson or Duratool bracket except at CK prices! (Identical products apart from the badge!) which I have not been too pleased about!
Now don't get me wrong, I don't mind buying either Duratool or Rolson stuff for 'one-offs' they are cheap and perfectly ok for the immediate task in hand, sure they are not pro gear by any stretch and wouldn't last a week in such a use, but for their intended purpose (one off) and cost they are 'adequate', what I did object to was paying premium prices for such stuff.
CK are nowhere near as good as they used to be, a colleague and I visit several tool fair and trade shows each year, we bought some of those plus minus screwdrivers for tightening certain electrical terminals and all of them failed, the ends sheared off.
At one show we happened upon a senior man from CK and he was extolling the virtues of the companies products, we took him to task on the screwdriver issue and he blustered for several minutes making excuses as to why they failed, sadly for him I have a bit of an understanding of metalurgy, and knew he was talking BS. Eventually he admitted that a batch of several thousands of them had gone out with the tips incorrectly hardened, but they had made no effort to recall them!
One other often overlooked factor is tool abuse, I read a review on a website of some diamond core drills, I had used the brand before and had no issues, they were very reliable. I managed to get further details from the reviewer as to what problems he was having, apparently the tips kept tearing off the cutters, "they actually cut better without using hammer action" he said in the end, and there was the problem! Had he bothered to read the instructions he would have realised that diamond core drills are never used on hammer, they are rotary only, it was the earlier heavy tungsten core cutters that used hammer action.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 12:19 pm   #55
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

Back in the early seventies I was working near Waterloo and we were on good terms with the GPO chap who spent most of his time in our building. He suggested that we went down the cut where there was a market stall which supplied at low cost, worn out GPO tools which they sold off as scrap.

Our friend then took these to his stores and brought us back nice new replacements, and very good they were.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 12:33 pm   #56
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

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Originally Posted by Scimitar View Post
Sale of Goods Act was done away with five years ago, so unwise to quote that in a dispute! It was replaced by the Consumer Rights Act 2015 which is actually relevant to modern commerce, having specifics about software downloads etc contained therein.

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rig...mer-rights-act
Goes to show how long it's been since I had need to quote it! (The one I was most familiar with was Sale of Goods Act 1971 which dates me a bit.)

I've now remembered the last not quite DOA but about as much use as the proverbial chocolate teapot item I returned: an Amazon purchase about two years ago. I got my money back with no quibble plus I was able to write a suitable review which ended: 'I have awarded this product one star only because I cannot award it none.'

It was a brand I didn't know and had an instruction booklet in very poor Chinglish. Had I seen it on a market stall or an auction type site I would never have considered it for reasons stated previously but with an Amazon guarantee it was worth the risk.

A few more irate reviews later and it was withdrawn on Amazon. Some reviews were positive which goes to show that some worked up to a point that satisfied the customer and/or some buyers are happy with tat.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 1:22 pm   #57
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

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Originally Posted by duncanlowe View Post
But then again, even when they produce stuff themselves it doesn't mean that it neccesarily matches their usual. For example I tend to favour Bosch Professional cordless tools. Prior to the brushless versions Bosch tools in the pro (blue) range had replaceable brushes because that was usually what killed them in pro use. I did make the mistake of buying one tool with typical symptoms of worn out brushes expecting a simple repair only to find that the particular model had none replaceable brushes, and an almost impossible to source replacement motor. Buyer beware, assume nothing!
Are you sure they made it themselves? I think the good stuff is or was made by Scintilla AG, the throw away stuff might be from another factory that might or might not be fully owned by Bosch.

Bosch is a mixed lot anyway, they took over and sold many smaller factories in many (mostly professional) branches. Often excellent quality, sometimes not. Their joint venture with Siemens for domestic appliances is still going strong but production quality has declined over the years.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 1:31 pm   #58
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

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But I also have seriously-expensive Lindstrom side-cutters and pliers: nobody seems to be able to make box-joints like Lindstrom!
I agree with you about Lindstrom box-joints, but have you taken a close look at a box-joint? How in the name of heaven are they made, anyway?

My father was a cabinet-maker, even though he worked in the automobile-manufacturing trade. He always bought good-quality tools and he said that "a good workman never blames his tools", for the simple reason that a good workman looks after his tools, keeping them well-maintained and/or sharp.

On the reverse side of this discussion, I have a small collection of Sabatier kitchen knives. Ok, they are stainless steel rather than high-carbon steel, but someone once used the tip of one of them as a screwdriver and damaged it. It was all I could do to not sharpen it up on his backbone via his navel!

Colin.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 2:04 pm   #59
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Default Re: Tool rip offs

I too have had the same experience with the jewellers screwdrivers, the blades were simply glued into the handles, & fell out.

I have had a recent bad experience with a set of modelling knives purchased from a well-known tool distributor. These appear on first sight, to be almost an exact copy of the real 'Xacto' knives, of which I had an original set for 50+ years.

The copies are highly dangerous, particularly if one uses considerable pressure when making a cut, e.g. when removing a track on a PCB. The collets that hold the blade are plastic internally, and are liable to lose grip & spew out the blade at an angle, with potentially dangerous results.

Dave.
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Old 21st Jun 2020, 2:25 pm   #60
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I still have some spanners from my first motorcycles tool kit, plain drop forged steel i.e. they will go rusty, all open ended and better than most modern sockets. The bike, an MZ from the 70's.
 
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