UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Radio (domestic)

Notices

Vintage Radio (domestic) Domestic vintage radio (wireless) receivers only.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 11th Aug 2020, 5:31 pm   #61
WessexWill
Triode
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 23
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Records View Post
Somebody said it s too big to be a radiogram. looking at the OP's pictures the piece that goes on top did hold a record player with radio, the cut outs cant be anything else, never seen a tube shaped like that. To me it looks like an early porthole tv with radio and 78 player, could the OP measure the height of the unit as i do admit it looks a tall unit.
Height is approx 103cm
WessexWill is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 6:32 pm   #62
PaulR
Dekatron
 
PaulR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southport Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 3,221
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

The idea of it being part of a centralised sound distribution system either from a ship or ballroom or similar seems possible particularly if record players were used in ships. The style of the woodwork doesn't look domestic somehow and it is very robustly made. There again, it has survived in very good condition if it was used in a public area.

At least it has given us all something to think about!
__________________
Paul
PaulR is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 6:34 pm   #63
greenstar
Octode
 
greenstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Leicester, Leics. UK.
Posts: 1,681
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

If it was a domestic radiogram or TV of some sort we need to account for the absence of a loudspeaker grille.
greenstar is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 6:39 pm   #64
PaulR
Dekatron
 
PaulR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southport Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 3,221
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

Exactly - that is one of the things that makes me think of a fixture of some type.
__________________
Paul
PaulR is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 6:42 pm   #65
dave walsh
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex.
Posts: 5,814
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

I did a search for "Armstrong Radiogram Chassis Circular" and got responses from the American Archive that [somewhat confusedly] includes UK Mags. There are references to Wireless World ads [eg 27/12/35] with at least two references to an 8 Stage Superhet amp/receiver. It says that the same chassis is available with a circular dial option [for £6-10/-].

It also also brought up a thread 'Armstrong Radio' by Hermit 6345, from this site, with photos of circular dials. I don't seem to be able to get back to any of this now, which is why I'm generally computer averse and unskilled. Armstrong definitely did have fairly beefy Tuner Amps with circular dials on offer in the mid 1930's though, which [possibly] all matches the Art Deco woodwork that Will has?

Dave W

Last edited by dave walsh; 11th Aug 2020 at 7:01 pm.
dave walsh is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 7:14 pm   #66
DAC10 Collector
Tetrode
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Bristol, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

Another possibility is that a 1940s Sound Sales amplifier/receiver (albeit with a bespoke control layout) was fitted. The use of these units is discussed in this thread (posts #19 & #20).

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=104581

Mike
DAC10 Collector is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 7:24 pm   #67
dave walsh
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex.
Posts: 5,814
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

Yes that could be an even better suggestion perhaps Mike. It's certainly got the right proportions [bigger than Armstrong probably]. I see I was on that thread in 2014 as well but like Manuel [in Fawlty Towers] "I know nothing" really The info at posts 19+20 might be a clincher!

Dave
dave walsh is offline  
Old 11th Aug 2020, 10:35 pm   #68
AC/HL
Dekatron
 
AC/HL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 9,637
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

I looked at Sound Sales images, which led to some large American extravaganzas. Some similarities in places, but nothing concrete. Philco and Ferguson had American roots, but there were some impressive Pyes too. I suppose it would go nicely with a full size Voight corner horn.
AC/HL is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 8:06 am   #69
SeanStevens
Octode
 
SeanStevens's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bath, Somerset, UK.
Posts: 1,033
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave walsh View Post

It also also brought up a thread 'Armstrong Radio' by Hermit 6345, from this site, with photos of circular dials. I don't seem to be able to get back to any of this now, which is why I'm generally computer averse and unskilled. Armstrong definitely did have fairly beefy Tuner Amps with circular dials on offer in the mid 1930's though, which [possibly] all matches the Art Deco woodwork that Will has?

Dave W
I bought that Armstrong for Hermit 6345. It was far too modern to go into that cabinet - but Armstrong could be a possibility. It had a radar like tuning dial. Lovely amp in it too.

SEAN
__________________
There are only 10 types of people, those who understand the binary system, and those who don't.
SeanStevens is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 8:44 am   #70
sparkymike
Octode
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Colchester, Essex, UK.
Posts: 1,063
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but could there have been a matching cabinet to the left which housed a speaker ?
One company comes to mind, Gordon Russell, who made very unusual furniture and also made cabinets for radio and radiograms for Murphy and others in the 50's.(and maybe earlier) The Gordon Russell museum should be contacted to see if any such design is in their records.
Mike.
sparkymike is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 9:19 am   #71
WessexWill
Triode
 
Join Date: Aug 2020
Location: Dorchester, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 23
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkymike View Post
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this before, but could there have been a matching cabinet to the left which housed a speaker ?
One company comes to mind, Gordon Russell, who made very unusual furniture and also made cabinets for radio and radiograms for Murphy and others in the 50's.(and maybe earlier) The Gordon Russell museum should be contacted to see if any such design is in their records.
Mike.
I can send them an email, a couple of photos and a link to this thread.
WessexWill is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 9:22 am   #72
sparkymike
Octode
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Colchester, Essex, UK.
Posts: 1,063
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

There is a similar style cabinet (radiogram) on Ebay at the moment by a company called Balcombe. (the cabinet makers name , not the radio gram.)
Mike.

Last edited by sparkymike; 12th Aug 2020 at 9:24 am. Reason: clarifying
sparkymike is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 10:02 am   #73
ms660
Dekatron
 
ms660's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 13,454
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkymike View Post
There is a similar style cabinet (radiogram) on Ebay at the moment by a company called Balcombe. (the cabinet makers name , not the radio gram.)
Mike.
A.J. Balcombe....aka Alba.

Lawrence.
ms660 is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 1:50 pm   #74
dave walsh
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex.
Posts: 5,814
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

I'm finding the concept of a sea [or land] based central Radiogram Unit, with external speakers, more and more likely but a matching cabinet [on the left] would surely have left evidence "Fascinating" as Popeye might say

Dave W
dave walsh is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 6:05 pm   #75
PaulR
Dekatron
 
PaulR's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Southport Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 3,221
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

I would have thought that the external speakers would have been wall mounted in the room where it was installed rather than free standing.
__________________
Paul
PaulR is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 6:30 pm   #76
Hartley118
Nonode
 
Hartley118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Cambridge, Cambs. UK.
Posts: 2,196
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

The circular dial with the controls arranged symmetrically around it is reminiscent of the Sound Sales radio systems, popular in schools, factories etc in the 1940s/50s. The amplifier (perhaps a nice p-p pair of PX4s?) may have been in the base of the main cabinet.

Sound Sales also made the rather good ‘Phase Inverter’ bass reflex cabinet speaker which, AFAIR, would have been a similar size to the smaller unit on the right hand side and may have completed the outfit.

Martin
__________________
BVWS Member
Hartley118 is offline  
Old 12th Aug 2020, 8:38 pm   #77
whyperion
Hexode
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London 90% , Northwest England 10%
Posts: 385
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

I am thinking in much the same as Sound Sales potential, or " I believe there were several radiogram chassis manufacturers in the 1940s / 50s who supplied to numerous specialist joinery companies and DIY enthusiasts." It is just is the cabinet 1930s- late , or post WW2, without a little makers badge in the inside somewhere ( normally an engraved black on white plastic tag on a couple of screws or rivet ) its difficult to know. It could be an apprentice piece, hence the standard of veneering,
The ship or ballroom idea might need following up to see if photos of the time give ideas, could also be college or a terminal waiting room if liner related.

. Given early TV was mainly London Area , but it did spread, the cabinet has some vague nod towards:
Baird T5 / T19 / T23 so could have been a prototype for something inbetween
Possible 1947ish , French ( Ducastel Freres have similar veneering on table top TVs)
Marconi 707
Ambassador Radio and Television ( but these were mainly 1953 onwards with larger screens, but again the style of veneer takes me to that kind of company)
anyone got photos of "Mains Radio Gramophone of Bradford 1948?)
Anything by the Co-Op or did they avoid television in early days?
If a projection type thought of The Marconi / Marconiphone 702 comes close along with the HMV901 however the HMV902 incorporated a top mounted 78 record player with a (rectangular) screen in the middle.

I think sticking with the idea overall of a custom cabinet for a bought in set of frames for a local dealer or department store , possibly for demonstration purposes only, part units had different puchase tax on compared to assembled models ?
whyperion is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2020, 2:36 pm   #78
Techman
Dekatron
 
Techman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lincolnshire, UK.
Posts: 4,985
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sparkymike View Post
There is a similar style cabinet (radiogram) on Ebay at the moment by a company called Balcombe. (the cabinet makers name , not the radio gram.)
Mike.
Yes, I've had a look at that one and I see what you mean, but I don't think there's enough similarities to really prove anything. It uses the same lid stay, but these same types were used on many grams of the time - I've probably got a few somewhere that I removed from old grams back in the day. However, I have "borrowed" one of the images so that members can make up their own minds if they haven't already seen it and I'll post it at the bottom of this post.

I have, however, got a few more observations on the cabinet in question. I think it has been suggested that it could have been built in as a fixture on a ship, or possibly in a hotel etc. That's a very logical suggestion, except for one very important point - the finish of the cabinet edge is veneered and rounded off all around the back edge (which is unlike the cabinet of the gram shown in the online advert). This alone indicates that this has never been built into a wall and indicates very strongly that this is in fact the front of the cabinet which may have housed a large speaker facing outwards to an audience, with the operator standing behind the unit operating the controls and playing records from what we now see as the front. I think it was David that said earlier in the thread that the back looked home made. I said something to the effect that because the back of the cupboard part was made from the same wood and looked original, that it was unlikely that the gram part had been changed, but this now looks like possibly both parts of the two piece back panel are made up replacements dating from immediately after its original use.

We have to accept that with the rear edge of the cabinet being finished and rounded the same as the front edge, that this was never built into anything. Also, another thing to look at is how much space would be needed to accommodate the rear of the lid when lifted. On this gram it is designed to not need very much space at the rear if it were built into a wall or similar, but this could just be a red herring, as it still needs a small amount of room at the rear as it's hinged up. Also the plinth that it stands on is 'finished' all the way round. So it's possible that the front's the rear and the rear is the front where the speaker/s would have been - possibly, yes or no?

Looking back at a picture in post #6, I note that it looks like a round hole cut at the rear of the middle shelf of the cupboard - is this actually a hole or is it just a round bit of paper on the shelf? Unless it's a trick of the light, there's a slot cut in the left hand front edge of the top shelf. this slot looks dark and possibly stained, indicating originality. What would these holes have been for - wiring? Could there have been a large battery pack in there with perhaps lead acid accumulators?

All just thoughts and still guessing!

Alba gram picture below - borrowed for reference only:-
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	s-l1600.jpg
Views:	138
Size:	75.7 KB
ID:	213389  
Techman is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2020, 4:51 pm   #79
dave walsh
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex.
Posts: 5,814
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

That's a very interesting suggestion and deduction Techman, based on your observations. I'm not sure that the back is so unoriginal myself but the "reverse engineering" possibility you postulate [based on the moulding] certainly seems credible. I think we may be heading in the right direction overall. As with modern DJ's/Turntablists most would want to face the audience. Some don't it's true [ie the Chemical Brothers] but with the social conventions of the 30's and 40's, standing behind the "rig" [to use a nautical term] would be the likely option. It might look peculiar in a domestic context of course My son often uses his DJ Set Up as a record player in his living room but he doesn't stand behind it In a Ballroom type setting it would be different.

Dave
dave walsh is offline  
Old 13th Aug 2020, 10:03 pm   #80
greenstar
Octode
 
greenstar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Leicester, Leics. UK.
Posts: 1,681
Default Re: Identifying radiogram. Value?

It also seems odd that with all those knobs there is no indication what they are for. A production model would surely have labelled knobs as you see on HMV's etc.
Could it have been sited in an island with the audience around it? Perhaps with an orchestra, so that records could be played while they had their drinks?
greenstar is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 4:37 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.