which reel to reel ?

[singh108]

Hi there

Am looking for buying a reel to reel, however am spoilt for choice.
Any feedback on Akai gx 747 dbx and the famous revox b77

[Ted Kendall]

Revox, every time. A derated pro machine instead of jumped up domestic electronics, robust, reliable and fixable. And it works just fine

[Roger13]

Hi.

Welcome to the forum. In answer to your query, much will depend on the individual machine, it's condition and your individual requirements. Frankly, at the level you're looking at, both the Akai and the Revox will be a pleasure to use, as they're both built 'up to a standard' rather than 'down to a price'.

For a good example of either expect to pay good money and check out the seller. Despite their reputation even a Revox, if it's had a hard life (in a semi-pro studio for instance) could end up costing you lots in maintenance bills - which is often why they're put up for sale!

Of the two machines you mention, and I must stress this is a personal preference, my choice would be the Akai, if only because the big Japanese manufacturers tend not to 'take any prisoners' when they're building top end kit.

Others here will doubtless disagree. I am not a Revox fan, due to my own experience of them, but a lot of enthusiasts would sell the wife before they'd part with their B77! So, I refer you back to my opening comments. Check the condition of the machine, try to get an idea of it's provenance. Has it been well looked after? And most importantly make sure it has the facilities you require. Good Luck,

Roger.

[Dave Anderson]

Hello.

Again, I would say it all depends why you want a reel to reel tape deck. Is it for playing music in a hi-fi system? Or will it be used for creative recordings in a home studio or on-location?

Also, why were you attracted to the Akai and the Revox? There might be other models more suited to your needs.

Personally, I would prefer to have the B77. Indeed I already own one and can confirm they are a very good machine.

Dave.

[SteveCG]

A few thoughts for you to mull over:

1) Why exactly do you want one? - Is it just the retro feel/appearance, or as others have already said, is it for actual new recordings?

2) Are you aware that there is very little new tape to be bought. Indeed what there is is usually Standard Play, high output, high bias level. This means that any machine you buy should be capable of being set up for those (professional) standards. There is older tape to be bought, but older tapes may have a fatal oxide shedding problem (covered elsewhere on this site).

3) Any machine you buy now will be many years old, and time takes its toll on even lightly used machines in the form of dry joints etc. Moreover there is good chance that the record and replay heads will be worn to the point that they need replacing.

Now it is possible to buy - say on eBay - many different types of machine. However I would caution you that any machine so bought is likely to need a good service by people with the right test gear, test tapes, spare belts etc. Now doing all this is is what is discussed here on this forum, but often by people with the necessary background and equipment and for whom the challege is interesting (It's got to be for all the hours put in!!!).

I guess the point is rather like buying a classic car. Are you prepared to get the beast working again? If this technical knowledge is not your forte, then by all means buy one to look at, but be aware that it is most unlikely to perform as well as it would have done when it was new without a lot of effort.

[Ted Kendall]

Precisely. Ever tried getting spares for a machine that isn't a Revox?

[DOFFERY]

That's a bit over the top Ted !

[ShaunDaley]

Is it really that bad for tape and spares for 2-track recorders? What I'm seeing for my model of 8-track, is plenty of machines being broken for spares, with others being sold completely whole, having been mothballed for many years and still in good condition.

The same applies to tape. There's still a plentiful supply for quarter and half inch 8-track. Granted the new tape is expensive, but it's easy enough to find.

[Michael Maurice]

I have to say Revox, every time, they are built like tanks, reliable and relatively easy to service. parts are readily available both new and S/H.

I would steer clear of the A700, I personally love them, but they are expensive and they are very complicated.

[Ted Kendall]

Agreed. The A700 is not for the faint-hearted, although it was my mainstay for a long time when fully professional machines were out of reach.

Where would we be without Colin for obscure tape machine bits? Up a gum tree, for the most part, and having more than once been given the bum's rush by Japanese firms or their agents when trying to source spare parts for not long obsolete machinery, my vote still goes with the B77 if the intention is to have something for go rather than show. The expensive Japanese stuff is all about perceived value rather than actual value. In the B77, yes we know the switches are a bit flimsy, the knobs are push-on plastic and plating is confined to operational bits rather than panels, but the capstan motor alone has had more spent on it than the entire transport of some of those Japanese behemoths. And while we're at it, dbX is a horrible system, anyway...

[TIMTAPE]

Originally Posted by Ted Kendall

The expensive Japanese stuff is all about perceived value rather than actual value.

A wild generalisation if ever there was one!

The Japs incorporated features such as the A77 capstan motor design into their own machines.

Companies like Tascam, Sony and Otari made some great professional reel to reel machines. I should know. I still work on them.

Tim

[Dave Anderson]

Perhaps our friend singh108 would like to give some feedback to the comments so far. In particular it would be nice to know what features/facilities he is looking for in a reel to reel deck. I feel as though we are starting to speculate on what may or may not be the right choice of machine with very little to go on.

Dave

[Kat Manton]

Originally Posted by TIMTAPE

Companies like Tascam, Sony and Otari made some great professional reel to reel machines. I should know. I still work on them.

But yet, back when I was failing to earn a living doing repairs, I was forced to tell two customers who'd brought Tascam machines in for repair, "Sorry, I can't fix it. Tascam don't have the parts."

Eight years ago, too; I came close to buying an Otari 1/2" 8-track machine. That didn't happen as the dealer I was going to buy it from wanted to replace the pinch roller before selling it. It wasn't available, from Otari.

Make of that what you will. If you're good at technical drawing and can find someone to make parts, or have a well-equipped workshop, there are many hours of fun to be had resurrecting faulty Japanese machines...

[DOFFERY]

I am a great fan of Revox , in fact I believe I was the first dealer in Revox when Colin Hammond took over the franchise. However not all spares for past Revox machines are to be had off the shelf & that shelf is very limited & expensive.

There are several other makes for which spares are available from one source or another including the Japanese machines. How many spares for UK models are now readily available off the shelf? Had I not invested heavily in spares over the decades many of my customers would have been in real trouble, not good business practice I admit but few customer problems.

As mentioned above Singh 108 needs to advise the forum of his requirements to elicit the best information from the members.

Colin.

[Ted Kendall]

The context of the discussion was whether to buy a B77 or a top-of-the line domestic Akai. Whatever the virtues of Japanese studio machines (and I admit to having an MTR-90/2 because I like it and sundry Fostexes because I've no choice) the domestic machinery is cluttered with bells and whistles to the detriment of basic engineering. Even the Technics decks the Americans rave about are a misunderstood copy of someone else's concept.

If you want a tape machine to use, buy a Revox; if you want one to gawp at, take your pick of any of a dozen superficially attractive Japanese models - after all, if you're only looking at it, whether it actually works is irrelevant.

While I'm at it (he said, warming to his theme) this thing of "pro show and dom go" applies to the Philips 4520 and 4522 as well. They look like an A700 in drag and.when new, almost performed like one, but you try fixing one! Beneath the skin, it's all "value engineering" - utterly infuriating. As the late-lamented Mac Hellyer said "manufacturers are reluctant to make their machines easy to service. That would imply that servicing was occasionally needed. wouldn't it?"

[Dave Anderson]

I am not sure if I like the idea of a reel to reel recorder with dbx built in. I appreciate that I could run the machine with the dbx switched off but if I were buying the Akai brand new I would feel as though I had paid for something I would never need.

I wonder how the Akai would perform without dbx against a half track B77 running at 15 ips. I suspect the Akai must need the noise reduction circuit to compensate for inadequacies in performance and it would struggle to match the B77.

If I wanted dbx or dolby I would buy a seperate unit but for my type of recording the "sound" of a noise reduction system would intrude and be very noticeable.

Dave

[singh108]

Hi guys thanks a load for all that treasured information, i am still new to this technology of reel to reels however being a musician i would love to record on these machine. have got the pleasure testing these and feel that the akai seems to have a sharper crisper quality compared to the revox b77. however the b77 does have a warmer feel to it. I did notice that when i did record a sample the dbx switched on created great distortion, not sure but i may be doing something wrong here.

Thank you very much for all of your replies, much appreciated.

[TIMTAPE]

Singh, notwithstanding the discussion about Japanese machines, in a way you open up a can of worms on other fronts.

Basically, analog tape machines and reel to reel in particular are obsolete except that there are millions of hours of material stored on these audio and video formats.
You have to be dedicated and have a very good reason to get into this stuff today if you want to make new recordings, as opposed to just accessing or transferring old material onto newer formats.

Re the Akai and B77 machines you've listened to, you cant just expect such old machines to work as new, as is. An AB comparison between them is not valid or fair to either machine. An analog tape machine might "work" but is it working to its original performance? Is it adjusted for optimum performance on the particular tape that's on it?

Many people do like the sound of distorted analog tape on drums, bass guitar etc. But that's the point. It's analog tape deliberately distorted. A good analog tape machine, used within its limits will sound very close to the original, or very close to a digital recording, for that was what it was designed to do. Be transparent.

The place of analog tape recording these days has pretty much come down to using it as a distortion effect, a bit like a guitarist's distortion effect pedal.
For me who grew up using and servicing this gear it's a bit of a come down, I must say, but it's reality. Aspiring musicians and producers bring to me tape machines often in appalling condition, thinking the tape machine is the missing production element in their goal to stardom or just recorded perfection. Nearly always it isnt.

In the end it's a cost/benefit thing. Will all the time, energy and money invested in vintage recording gear be justified? I guess ultimately only you can judge that. Of course if it's only a hobby for you then I guess that's different.

Hope this helps,

Tim

[ShaunDaley]

I don't think we've yet got to the bottom of the main aim here. Recording music is a bit vague. It could be the starting from scratch to record vocals and music on multitrack, or perhaps to just master a piece of work already created (quite possibly digitally).

Given that most of the discussion so far seems to be geared towards two-track machines, mastering would appear to be the motive. However, if music is to be actually created, not just mastered, then the whole picture changes. The inextricable link between multitrack recorder and mixing desk (together with the distinct possibility of all sorts of outboard gear) means that discussions as to specific machines might be somewhat premature.

I regularly start from scratch recording music on my 8-track, and still aim to get the best signal to noise ratio I can. Introducing distortion into the mix is a complete no-no. So there are still some purists out there. I also have a digital 8-track, but barely use it; it's too small and fiddly compared to the much bigger analogue machine and mixer. I digitise the analogue recordings, track by track, and enjoy the bonus of having the original tape plus digital files.

In terms of maintenance, I've found the 8-track simply hasn't had enough use over the years to warrant excessive maintenance, so the costs have been negligible. I have masses of digital stuff, which in comparison to analogue is largely maintenance free, but most of it is made redundant all too quickly. I've spent a fortune on digital cameras (stills and video), just to stay on top of the game.

I think this can be compared to the hassle and running costs associated with a classic car. Chances are that if one is being used as an everyday vehicle, the owner has to be a real enthusiast with deep pockets. However, there are also those who have classics for the occasional run out in fine weather, which tends to be less demanding overall.

So, again, going back to the original motive behind acquiring a tape deck, how often would it be used? Is it only for mastering music already recorded, or would it be used to actually make music?

Shaun

[pcawthron]

singh108,

If you are thinking along the lines of a home recording studio I would suggest you look at DTRS in addition to R2R. It's a technology that has been made redundant by studios using DAWs with big hard-drives and some amazing deals can be had.

I managed to get a Tascam DA-98HR (Tascam invented the format) with about 95 hours use for £275 delivered. It's a an 8-track digital recorder - really a successor to DAT but 8-track. The DA-98HR was Tascam's flagship and final DTRS and was effectively obsolete when it was launched around 2000. Price new was around $5,000.

It uses an audio version of Hi-8 video tape and gives 113 minutes recording time. It's digital with a choice of 16-bit or 24-bit (the HR stands for Hi-Resolution) sampling.

The really interesting bit? You can aggregate channels. I use mine as a 'quad' recorder with 4 channels at 24/96 but you can use it as a master recorder with 2 channels at 24/192.

Digital tape at 24/192. W&F that can't be measured. No concept of biasing for specific tapes. 104bB dynamic range. 20Hz - 20kHz frequency response ±.5dB. And you could daisy-chain upto 16 machines in sync for 128 channels!

The DA-98HR is the only model with 'soft' patching which is very useful - you can map any of the 8 tracks to any of the physical connections on the back.

A pukka bit of studio gear of less than £300. And NOS 113m tapes can be found for less than £3 each.

Regards,

Peter