Sprint and KiCad PCB CAD software impressions please?

[David G4EBT]

For many years, using UV techniques I've designed and made my own PCBs or adapted artwork for magazines.

I've become reasonably adept at using MS PAINT - a drawing program bundled with Widows, which MS are at some point going to drop. I've never found PCB CAD programs very user friendly or amenable for homebrew production techniques because of course, that's not what they're intended for, which is the precision manufacture of PCBs in factory conditions using complex machinery and processes.

Recently, two forum chums have gifted me PCBs made by JLCPCB which are very high quality - far beyond what could every be achieved by homebrew techniques, and ironically, much cheaper. One used Sprint - the other KiCad, which both chums have recently learnt to master. I'd really like to get to grips with it because to get PCBs made commercially, you must provide Gerber files and using the techniques I use, that isn't possible.

At present, the steps I need to take are really quite tortuous.

Using PAINT, I create a circuit, (no library), then I lay out the actual components on a piece of card to get an idea of the size of layout, then from that, drawing each component outline I create overlay of how the PCB will look, drawing tracks in grey to simulate an X-Ray view of the PCB. I rearrange the layout if need be where tracks would cross or wire links would be needed.

When I'm happy with that, I copy that drawing and 'flip' it so that the X-Ray is shown in the correct orientation of how the underside of the PCB artwork will be. I change the grey tracks to black, and erase all the component outlines so I'm left with the finished PCB track layout.

I then invert the colours of the black and white layout create a negative mask of the artwork to print onto micro-porous film for use with negative resist UV dry film, (remembering to print the mask in reverse so that when placed in the UV box, the ink side is adjacent to the laminate so that the UV doesn't 'undercut' the tracks). When exposed, all the white areas remain as the resist, and all the black areas of the design are washed away by the developer and etched away in etchant.

Next step is to cut a piece of laminate to size, scrupulously clean it and apply the UV dry film ensuring all air bubbles are eliminated, then passing the laminate and UV film through a laminator to seal the film to the board. Put the board and mask in the UV lightbox and expose, develop and etch. The soak the board in acetone to remove the UV resist, and drill and tin the board.

Each step can have pitfalls, which I've largely been able to master, but having served a six-year craft apprenticeship under hard taskmasters in the late 1950s, it's etched on my brain that 'good enough is not good enough', so I'm pernickety/picky/fussy/hypercritical about standards (undiagnosed borderline OCD? ) and all it takes is for one miss-drilled hole, and the board (or anything else I make) goes in the bin. That mindset will follow me to the grave.

I keep telling myself that having jumped through all the hoops to master these tortuous steps to make a homebrew PCB, (using a program never designed for that purpose), then surely I can get to grips with Sprint or KiCad? Yet when I've looked at various online tutorials, my eyes start to glaze over and I lose the plot. Part of the problem is that the programs are so powerful and can create multi-layer boards, when I generally only need signal sided - or at most double.

To demonstrate how tortuous it is to do things the way that I've been doing, I've attached an example of the PCB I designed to make the FM/AM converter which featured in the Summer 2017 BVWS Bulletin. As published, it was on Veroboard, which I dislike with a passion, so in Aug 2017 I designed a PCB, which I redesigned in July 2018 to create a smaller PCB. I've attached a pic of the steps involved from drawing the circuit to creating a UV mask. Then of course the board has to be exposed, developed, etched, drilled and tinned, (and if its not spot on, binned).

I don't mind 'suffering for my art', but I'm not a masochist (or maybe I am?), so really, this malarkey defies all common sense.

The bottom line is that I'd very much like to know of the experiences of those hobbyists who - like me - have no professional experience and are towards the bottom of the food chain when it comes to using CAD, yet have managed to become competent at using either Sprint or KiCad, and whether one seems easier or more convenient to use than the other. Also, what the programs cost.

For those who have read these ramblings down to here, thanks so much for reading this 'cri de cœur'.

For any kindred spirits who might be able to answer my query, thanks in advance.

[Electronpusher0]

Hello David, you know my views, learn KiCad, you won't regret it.

But then I am biased having just learned KiCad........

Peter

[Refugee]

I had a play with KiCad installed from the Linux repository.
There is a fiddly process that you can use create new circuit symbols based on .BMP files.
You can create your own library of valve symbols from scans of old data books.

[MrBungle]

Heavy user of Kicad here. Can't beat it! Learning curve but worth it. JLCPCB is pretty excellent as well.

Did the attached board. was £8 delivered for 5 off.





(I know a couple of parts are missing - this one got abandoned )

Edit: there is one penalty which is worth mentioning it. If you ****** something up then you have to wait for a replacement. Like I did here with the SMA footprints

[AdrianH]

I am still learning Kicad, and it has been a month or two since I used it last, but have done three PCB's using it and the same PCB manufacturer that you mentioned JCLPCB.

I have to say I think the process is wonderful, boards have been for 6021 audio amps, 1.8MHzAM TX for MW low power and Amateur playing. and finally my TT15 audio amps, There is a set of Youtube videos I followed which was at least on version 5 'Johns Basement'

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?rel...H-PCdwPCWc9F8a

Yes there are things to learn, as I use it mainly for valve circuits I have needed to generate my own symbols and footprints, but so far I have managed it. Even allowing for the frustration of sometimes getting it wrong I think it may be the way to go, From JCLPCB yes you have to have min 5 PCBs and leaded solder is the cheapest option given, but it is not a major added expense to go for lead free and 2 oz tracks etc if required. Some times the delivery is as expensive as the boards, but the do use DHL etc.

Just my thoughts.

Adrian

[kellys_eye]

I've always felt that such CAD design packages are 'over built' for many users - fortunately it's not a matter of cost with KiCad but I'd dearly like a version that have a much simpler interface, only the basics (pads and tracks) and, consequently, a much shorter and less steep learning curve.

Being totally ignorant of KiCads abilities I'm going to find myself embarrassed when someone tells me you 'can do that' - I hope they do!

[AdrianH]

Have a look through the youtube link and see for yourself. It is a manual routing package and can be quite simple in use.

Adrian

[Wendymott]

Hi David I bought DIPTRACE a couple of years ago... "not cheap"... but once I had learned how to use it, I use nothing else..... I can export files to China if I need some double sided boards, but mainly I "home cook". Its what you get to know ..... I have personal libraries of both schematic and PCB components.....both built up over time. I rarely use the Diptrace components.
I did try Kicad ... once... but the learning curve was not for me,,,at the end of the day... it what works for you

[Bobdger]

Hi David.
I am still learning Kicad, it is alot better then Design spark. Having seen the results of Peters boards, I may move some of my stock boards away from Spirit Circuits and try JLCPCB.

Bob

[Scimitar]

JLPCB have their own software - EasyEDA which I prefer to the others. It will allow to to produce your own artworks if you wish too, no compulsion to use their service. I have found it easy and largely intuitive.

[Andrew Sinclair]

Hello David,
I have used Kicad for a number of boards over the last few years. It has a steep learning curve but I didn't find it too bad. It is intended to be a professional standard program.
It has features to try and reduce the chances of errors creeping in. You start by drawing a circuit diagram. this is useful as it gives a nice looking drawing that is useful for your records, and even more useful if you intend to publish or share the design with others. The PCB layout is linked to the circuit diagram so that if the connections on the circuit diagram are correct, the PCB layout connections will be correct. This is very useful! Automatic checking of clearances on the layout is also useful.
I don't use all the facilities on Kicad but it is nice to know they are there!
Andrew

[Scimitar]

Here is one I made earlier with EasyEDA!

[Terry_VK5TM]

I use Sprint and in my view it is much easier to learn to use than Kicad - they both have their own quirks on how things are done (I have used Kicad).

If you want a package that is more like using paper and pen - Sprint, or if you want the magic of auto-routing and a myriad other things - Kicad.

Really depends on how much time you are prepared to invest in learning either package and whether you want free (Kicad) or to spend a little money (Sprint).

Sprint does have a demo version (doesn't allow saving or gerber output) that will give you feel for it.

[bikerhifinut]

I'm just starting out trying to learn KiCAD on the recommendation of one of the leading lights in our very informal local amateur radio group.
Ron Taylor G4GXO has started us off with, so far, one Zoom session tutorial, and as you would expect a couple are away with it and one or 3 like me are struggling.
As this is all being done remotely I am sure you would be welcome to join us David.
Our next session as i understand it will be to build up your own Footprint Library, this is of interest to me as I use a very limited range of through hole components so would rather just have a few generic footprints rather than a comprehensive list of every chip, resistor and capacitor etc etc to trawl through every time.
We have a web based forum group,
https://groups.io/g/EdenValleyRadio
There's currently a twice weekly radio net that I listen in to, not having a licence yet ( I intend to gain one ), next ones on Sunday usually around 1100 on 3750 MHz, I listen in using hack green SDR which is very satisfying when the Eddystone isn't receiving the weaker signals.
I also find KiCAD to be very tricky and being very computer Illiterate it is a real struggle, i suspect you'll be much better than me. But I am assured that once I get my head round it I'll be wondering why i never used it!

regards, or should that be 73

Andy.

[Chris55000]

Evening Dave!

I like professional–standard PCBs but I particularly want to use the UNO Stencil British Drawing Office Lettering styles on my silkscreen, just like our erstwhile British Radio and TV manufacturers used to do!

That's KiCAD right out of the window to begin with – I hate those awful primary school "4s!"

Sprint Layout is also out as well for the same reason – only one lettering style available on it's silkscreen!

Therefore I'm left with one paid and one free choice – Easy–PC by Number One Systems or the free "Design Spark" from RS – both of these will handle TTF on their silkscreen, and I can confirm that JLC can make a PCB with TTF – I sent the Gerber Files to JLC made with "Radio Constructor" and "Wireless World" lettering on the top side silkscreen and the lettering came back perfect!

Another sophisticated PCB tool that will handle TTF is AutoTrax DEX – it has a learning curve halfway between DipTrace and KiCAD.

Design Spark is reasonably OK if you want to make something like a two valve record player amplifier in PCB form, but forget about "autorouting" with it – it's hopeless for anything remotely complex!

I have a forthcoming project to make a Sound and PSU PCB for Chris Field for his Telpro that's missing one, and since it's original PCBs are SRBP (FR2) lettered with "Radio Constructor" diagram lettering, that means "Easy PC" or "Design Spark" if I'm going to make it with the same lettering, which is my desire!

Chris Williams

[ChristianFletcher]

I work professionally designing PCBs and have used most design packages. I would Choose Kicad simply because it now has the largest following and is continuously being improved. It is currently free but that’s just a matter of time. I buy many hundreds of PCBs per year but still enjoy making my own. PCB design package are like a religion neither good nor bad but people will fight for what the believes in. Kicad is no worse than the other. But I mainly use Altium for the high speed stuff and controlled impedances.

[Wendymott]

Hi Christian. In the 90's I was employed by a certain tv importer, no need for names or pack drill...due to various circumstances the lab staff changed and 3 guys from Thorn / Ferguson were parachuted in. Up to then my associate and I were using a package called Autotrax it was easy to use, did what we needed, and designed a full colour tv for a Korean company. Then the company decided to relocate our lab to London. The guys from Thorn were PCAD users... apparently PCAD was "THE" package.. but wayyyyyy to complicated for me. I was tasked with designing the CRT base, not too difficult... but using PCAD..... I refused to use it..... there was H**l on ...I was re assigned to doing what I was doing before relocation... Happy bunny. I seem to think Altium took over PCAD, and Auto trax and possibly Tango.... thus putting their own stamp on things and charging zillions of £'s.. I really am glad I got out

[David G4EBT]

Thanks very much everyone for reading the thread and for your helpful responses, which have given me a lot of food for thought.

What's inspired me to ask the question is that just a few weeks ago, when Peter - Electronpusher0 - got it touch with me in mid January about the 'Mini-Mod' he said he was going to learn how to use KiCad to create the PCB and get it made by JLCPCB. Some three weeks or so later, I was delighted to receive a PCB from Peter through the post. It must have been a steep learning curve! Splendid too, that the PCBs are error free. I enjoyed building it and it worked right away. Just need to box it up now.

Tony Nailor at Spectrum Comms (who can supply at the Mini Mod bits - not just the two coils). will wonder what's going on when the orders start flowing in!

Do these PCB CAD programs allow any freedom on pin spacing of the PCB pads for non-standard components, given that most 'through-hole' component pin spacings tend to be 2.5, 5, 10 mm? For example, the RDA5807A FM module as used in the BVWS FM/AM converter by Guy Fernando is really an SMD device, but for home-brew use is best mounted on pins in the five notches on the left and right hand edges of the device. The pin spacings are 3mm and from left to right, are spaced 11mm apart.

I'll try to resolutely stick with the tutorials because I quite enjoy using programs that I'm reasonably competent with such as MS Paint, Photoshop Elements, Publisher, Powerpoint, so if I can raise my game I'll be able to focus my efforts on creating PCB designs without having to resort to using a 'chemistry set' to make the PCBs myself. Ironically, not only would that free up lots of time, but I'd end up with top notch PCBs from JLCPCB at a quarter of the cost of home-brew ones.

I dislike other forms of construction such as stripboard, 'dead bug', (AKA 'ugly-style'), 'Manhattan' or just tacking things together, though I know that many use such techniques to good effect. I've enjoyed making PCBs for decades when there was really no other option, and it's nice to have the flexibility to create a PCB and make it the same day, but there's nothing that I do which is so urgent that a two or three weeks wait from e-mailing the order to getting the boards would be problematical.

Special thanks to Peter for his inspiration!

Pic attached: PCB layout with RDA5807A FM module.

[Wendymott]

Hi David. Im not into Kicad, but Diptrace allows you to custom make any component with any pin spacing, pad size, pad hole size, pad shape. etc. I can generate any grid size... and any track width, so I suspect Kicad will do the same....as its "software" you will be able to do most things, as they all have one parent.

[Terry_VK5TM]

Sprint allows you to make the pin spacing what ever you wish in metric or imperial when placing pads.

Never tried it in Kicad, so can't say on that front.