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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 4th Jul 2010, 2:28 am   #81
TIMTAPE
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

It's perhaps not appropriate in this forum but I feel it would have been much more fruitful to have narrowed the discussion down in the beginning to Hendrix/Clapton records, even down to a particular track like All Along The Watchtower and analyzed that little gem in terms of likely equipment and production techniques.

As I said earlier, trying to generalise about "the 60's sound" risks grossly oversimplifying. Think of all the different styles of music and the way they were recorded either in the 60's or the 70's and I think it's fair to say the differences between those styles and genres would far outstrip audible differences due solely to the equipment avalable at those times.

Understandably too, home recordists and musos who are not particularly interested in the equipment or the craft of audio production tend to seek a "magic bullet" such as a classic mic or tape machine which will make them sound just like their heroes, but it's not always that simple.

On Hendrix and Clapton it should be remembered that not only did they have great productions teams recording them but they were wonderfully talented and inventive guitarists whose talent would have shone through even with less stellar production techniques. Every electric guitarist knows Hendrix but who was Eddie Kramer?

Tim
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 6:33 am   #82
Alan Stepney
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Earlier this year, a pal who services studio equipment, took me along to a well known studios.
In discussion with the technical guys there, the question of "the 60's sound " was the main topic as they were getting old (mainly valve) equipment out of store, and gathering more, to recreate that sound.

On the recording side, for this particular project, they had a dozen or so Ferrographs.

(I did tell them that they werent suitable and that I should relieve them of the encumbrance, but to no avail.)

We talked about some of the more "exotic" makes, some of which they had available, but they reckoned that these were ideal for the purpose and would give the result they required.

(I dont know the specific objective in this case, so offer the above without any comment.)
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 9:40 am   #83
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

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Originally Posted by veffreak View Post
Hello,

I'm wondering if there's a "favourite" vintage tape recorder that had set new quality standards in say end of 60's? I think I'd like to try one for recording vocals and maybe some guitar. I'm curious about the effects of a good vintage tape recorder on the tone. Which models would you suggest for this?

Thanks!

veffreak
Hi one of the things that helped the "60's sound " was the valve amps and the mics that were used. Also as a lot of 60's recordings were mono they messed with the phasing of the sound to give a sort of pseudo stereo, which leads to some very interesting effects. I believe The Beatles used this on Strawberry Fields and some of the other Psychodelic Rock.

Some other effects were:

Electric guitars, often used with feedback, wah wah and fuzzboxes.

Elaborate studio effects, such as backwards tapes, panning, phasing, long delay loops, and extreme reverb.

A strong keyboard presence, especially organs, harpsichords, or the Mellotron (an early tape-driven 'sampler')

(From the Wikipedia 'Psychedelic Rock' entry.)

Hope this helps, a lot of this gear can still be got hold of. Try and avoid digital if you can and you will have a hell of a lot of fun playing.
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Last edited by Kat Manton; 5th Jul 2010 at 11:45 am. Reason: To comply with Wikipedia's rules
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 9:57 am   #84
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Thanks for the input, especially to neon indicator and cat Kat Manton for the detailed suggestions and explanations! Kat Manton, your post explained most of the things i hear in these recordings and i think this might be the best ticket. I myself have a couple of Shure sm57 mics. I suppose these would be great for the purpose, especially on the guitar amp.
Sorry that i didn't narrow it down to the specific style or artists that i had in mind, but it was mostly due to my initial assumption that a lot of the sound had to do with the recorders.
I think it would still be great to try out a good 60's tape recorder, maybe a 2-track as these seem to have been dominating at that time. I think me and my band-mates will just make some tests at my place and try out what happens if we record together in a "live setting" or individually, mixing it all together. I think we will end up with a mix - some tracks will be done recording together, some separately. I've heard many recordings of Black Keys that seem to be recorded also in a "live setting" and they instantly have that old-school vibe to them.
AS to the recorder for that purpose. Many have suggested the Revox 77 and it seems to be a machine that is still somewhat on the affordable side. But it also looks like there is something like a love/hate attitude to it here. People have mentioned that it has somewhat high-end parts on the mechanical side, but that it's also has some reliability issues "on the outside". It wouldn't be a problem for our purposes, if it's in a good condition, we wouldn't wear it down ourselves anyway. Afaik MK I is from '67 - was it a 2-track from the beginning? Is there any MK that is preferred and why (as long we're within 60's - til 69)?

Thanks again guys!

veffreak
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 10:02 am   #85
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Thanks, dark1stu! I have the guitar side covered - the right amps, effects, etc. Lots of these studio effects you mentioned we intend to use too, but it will probably be done digitally - backwards tape effect, panning and phasing should be handled quite well by digital. Delay and reverb are the part where we think about alternatives. Convolution based reverb effects sound very good though and there are some convincing VST's for tape delay too (not spot on to real deal though).

Regards,

Veffreak
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 10:27 am   #86
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Hi,

A few years ago I worked on an Studer 8 track A80, and its subsequent in an all analog recording, and I have to say the “sound” of the A80 did contribute something to the sound of the recording.

A while back I did some work for professional guitarist where I had to replicate the input amplifier of an A77 to use with his guitar, as he liked the sound of his guitar running through the input amplifier of his A77 and then into his amp. It was impractical for him to carry the A77 around with him, so I built the replaced circuit into a die cast box, which he used with his other effects units. This also acted as a buffer.

There are some basic similarities between the A77 and A80 circuits.

Regards.
Terry.
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 10:46 am   #87
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Thanks Terry,

i've heard similar solutions - one of the most common ones would be the preamp of the famous echoplex, which many used as a boost for the amp (J. Page for example) - and there are some pedal builders who have built this in a small box.

Terry, is it possible to describe the sonical contribution of the A80 or A77 in words? I suppose it's subtle and hence hard to describe?

Kind regards,

veffreak
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 10:53 am   #88
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

You could start by checking out the first Julian Bream/John Williams "Together" album - this was recorded using high speed Revox G36s on BASF LR56.
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 11:53 am   #89
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Following on from what Ted Kendall said, if you want to hear how well an A77 can perform, try some early catalogue recordings from the Swedish BIS label. This is mostly classical music. The owner, Robert von Bahr, who was also their recording engineer (and did almost all the other jobs for the company) used a high speed Revox A77 with Agfa PEM468 tape and no Dolby. He often used only a pair of Sennheiser omni mics. All the recording details are printed religiously on the CD booklet so you can check before you buy that a Revox was actually used. His recordings have a purity of sound that would probably surprise you. He used Revox machines for many of his early recordings before later trying out other set-ups and inevitably 'going digital'. His recordings proved to me that a Revox was good enough to make a master tape that could be used to press a good vinyl disc or CD. And look at the price of a Revox compared to other studio machines of the time...

Dave
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 12:00 pm   #90
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Valvepower View Post
Hi,

A while back I did some work for professional guitarist where I had to replicate the input amplifier of an A77 to use with his guitar, as he liked the sound of his guitar running through the input amplifier of his A77 and then into his amp. It was impractical for him to carry the A77 around with him, so I built the replaced circuit into a die cast box, which he used with his other effects units. This also acted as a buffer.


Regards.
Terry.
The A77 preamp, like the B77's is a good basic design. It also has a high impedance setting which would probably accept an electric guitar without strangling the sound.
But it's not going to give any "warmth" to the sound such as Hendrix used with his valve amps. This is because it's a transistor design. What goes in is what comes out.
Perhaps the guitarist had been using a wrongly matched preamp from another tape recorder. Many transistorised tape machines only accepted low impedance microphone inputs. Ones like the A77/B77 and the Ferrograph series 7 had genuine high impedance inputs.

Tim
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 12:07 pm   #91
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Just to add to the above, mixing from three channels (left, right and centre) down to 2channel stereo (to get some 'bleeding') and 2-channel mixed to mono was common in the 1950s/60s. Pop, and I suspect 'blues-rock', (not my type of music I'm afraid) was nearly always mono in the 1960s.

Barry
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 12:32 pm   #92
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Anderson View Post
Following on from what Ted Kendall said, if you want to hear how well an A77 can perform, try some early catalogue recordings from the Swedish BIS label. This is mostly classical music. The owner, Robert von Bahr, who was also their recording engineer (and did almost all the other jobs for the company) used a high speed Revox A77 with Agfa PEM468 tape and no Dolby. He often used only a pair of Sennheiser omni mics. All the recording details are printed religiously on the CD booklet so you can check before you buy that a Revox was actually used. His recordings have a purity of sound that would probably surprise you. He used Revox machines for many of his early recordings before later trying out other set-ups and inevitably 'going digital'. His recordings proved to me that a Revox was good enough to make a master tape that could be used to press a good vinyl disc or CD. And look at the price of a Revox compared to other studio machines of the time...

Dave
Eddy Offord recorded the organ pieces on the first ELP album on his HS Revox A77. Revoxes in general are much better than some people will ever believe, provided they are lined up properly and their foibles accomodated. It is this clear superiority of performance and ease of line-up which sets the Revox apart from almost any Japanese machine apart from the later Tascams and such, which made some concessions to professional requirements.
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 2:01 pm   #93
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Hi,
Quote:
Originally Posted by dark1stu View Post
Try and avoid digital if you can [...]
Something of a sweeping generalisation!

Like saying "avoid tape recorders"; obviously that's not specific enough to be useful

Could you qualify that by stating which audio interfaces and workstation software you have used and what particular problems you experienced?

Regards, Kat
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 2:39 pm   #94
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Veffreak,

You asked about 1/2-track v 1/4 track A77s. Most professionals stuck to 1/2 track as it has far better s:n, dynamic range, cross-talk etc. 1/4 track was only really popular in the 1960s domestic user market as you got:-
- double the running time out of your tape (by flipping it over) - even in the 1960s, tape was not cheap
- you could replay pre-recorded stereo tapes on a 1/4 track mono machine through a second amplifier saving on the cost of a proper stereo recorder. 1/4 track decks were however more expensive than 1/2 track to buy new.

The 1970s saw introducion of 4-channel 1/4" decks - such as the Teac 3340 - but that in a different beast altogether.

There is no advantage to you in getting a 1/4 track deck - besides which, Revox A77 1/4tracks heads are notoriously difficult to keep clean. They are cheaper second-hand.

Which A77? I have Mk.I and a Mk.III/IV 'hybrid' - the Mk.I is still a lovely deck, the Mk.III/IV has minor improvements but nothing 'outstanding'. My Mk.III is an ex-BBC Local Radio model upgraded to Mk.IV -and upgraded decks are now very common, so in many ways any well looked after A77 is 'good'.

Barry
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 7:01 pm   #95
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Quote:
Originally Posted by neon indicator View Post
Back in 1991 a friend an I tested a 1957 electric guitar direct with no amp, with Marshal amp* at "normal domestic volume" and at typical performance volume (last two dynamic mic and electret mic).
Actually maybe 1993 or 1994

Quote:
Originally Posted by neon indicator View Post
(* I think a Marshal? 2x big speakers open back and valve amp at top. Optional Springline reverb unit was not used.
Maybe a Fender or something else with EL84s and ECC83 or 12AU7s or similar.
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 7:58 pm   #96
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Hi Veffreak,

Your right, it’s hard to describe the contribution the A80 made to the sound, but without sounding like a hi-fi Magazine it added an openness and depth. It’s a sound you hear on some 70’s recordings using A80’s.

We used PPM meters to monitor levels, plus we recorded at higher levels, avoiding tape saturation, than recommended by the manual. This is because the 2inch A80 has high headroom. By using a PMM we were able to run at higher levels than using the standard calibrated VU’s.

Terry.

Quote:
Originally Posted by veffreak View Post
Thanks Terry,

i've heard similar solutions - one of the most common ones would be the preamp of the famous echoplex, which many used as a boost for the amp (J. Page for example) - and there are some pedal builders who have built this in a small box.

Terry, is it possible to describe the sonical contribution of the A80 or A77 in words? I suppose it's subtle and hence hard to describe?

Kind regards,

veffreak
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 8:15 pm   #97
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Veffreak,

I just want to add one small point to that made by Barry (or should it be brenellic2000?) with regard to half track vs quarter track Revox A77 machines. If you do choose a Revox for this type of recording it must be a half track stereo machine with high speeds. Barry mentioned the advantages of using a half track recorder, and I agree with his points. I just want to mention one big problem with a quarter track recorder. As a quarter track recording head is recording onto a narrow part of 1/4" tape you may have a problem with dropouts on the tape. If I were recording a master tape I would prefer to record at 15 ips. Unfortunately I don't think you can get a quarter track machine that will operate at 15 ips. The highest speed you can go to is 7.5 ips (unless I am very much mistaken and someone will no doubt correct me). I suppose recording at 7.5 ips on a quarter track machine could be fast enough to not notice any dropouts but I'm not so sure. If you drop the speed to 3.75 ips you WILL hear dropouts on tape. Not only that but you'll lose dynamics, upper frequency response will suffer and so will signal to noise ratio etc. No, avoid quarter track machines for this type of recording. They have their uses but in this situation a half track high speed (7.5 ips and 15 ips) will be more suitable.

Dave
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 8:19 pm   #98
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Hi Tim,

It was about 28 years ago when I built this gadget so I've forgotten the finer points, but suffice to say, the guitarist was running a Marshall Super Lead amp so he already had a “warm” sound (well as warm as a Marshall 100 gets at full tilt!). The guy noticed his A77 added some character to the sound when he had it in the signal path, plus he was able to overdrive the Marshall - yes it made the Marshall go up to 12!.

Funny you saying about Hendrix, as the guitarist I did this work for was deemed to be the "British" Jimi Hendrix in the early 70’s.

Terry.

Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valvepower View Post
Hi,

A while back I did some work for professional guitarist where I had to replicate the input amplifier of an A77 to use with his guitar, as he liked the sound of his guitar running through the input amplifier of his A77 and then into his amp. It was impractical for him to carry the A77 around with him, so I built the replaced circuit into a die cast box, which he used with his other effects units. This also acted as a buffer.


Regards.
Terry.
The A77 preamp, like the B77's is a good basic design. It also has a high impedance setting which would probably accept an electric guitar without strangling the sound.
But it's not going to give any "warmth" to the sound such as Hendrix used with his valve amps. This is because it's a transistor design. What goes in is what comes out.
Perhaps the guitarist had been using a wrongly matched preamp from another tape recorder. Many transistorised tape machines only accepted low impedance microphone inputs. Ones like the A77/B77 and the Ferrograph series 7 had genuine high impedance inputs.

Tim
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 8:35 pm   #99
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

Thanks for pointing that out, Dave - i'm really depending on the great advice i found here, as i don't know any guys personally in my city that know this stuff in such detail. Also my band mates are all young enough to know mostly only digital solutions.

Regards,

veffreak
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Old 4th Jul 2010, 9:34 pm   #100
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Default Re: Are 60's tape recorders an important part of the "60's sound?

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Originally Posted by Valvepower View Post
Hi Tim,

It was about 28 years ago when I built this gadget so I've forgotten the finer points, but suffice to say, the guitarist was running a Marshall Super Lead amp so he already had a “warm” sound (well as warm as a Marshall 100 gets at full tilt!). The guy noticed his A77 added some character to the sound when he had it in the signal path, plus he was able to overdrive the Marshall - yes it made the Marshall go up to 12!.

]
Hi Terry,
From what you say it seems the A77 did "add some character" to the sound but, as far as I can tell, only because the extra gain it afforded drove the Marshall valve amp into even more wailing overdrive distortion. Cripes it must have been loud!

I have a nephew who uses a modern Marshall guitar amp and it's a hybrid transistor/valve design called a "valvestat" or something like that. The front end has I assume a valve stage in it somewhere which can be overdriven, and the power circuitry downstream is solid state.
The advantage is you can get the overdriven sweet sound even at lower volumes, without having to raise the dead...

Tim
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