Very rusty Philips 470A

[Oliver35]

Hello- I'm a new member on this forum, although I have been trawling it with enthusiasm for some time. I'm new to the whole hobby, so I've joined up in the hope of gaining some guidance.
I've recently (yesterday) acquired a Philips 470A, which whispered to me in an antique shop and asked me to take it away. Fortunately I didn't have to pay an 'antique' price!
I was attracted to the fact that the Bakelite case and dial glass are in excellent condition, and although the chassis is very rusty, the set appears to be complete, unmolested and with the original valve line up. So far, all I have done is put a meter across the mains transformer and the valve heaters to ascertain that all is well in those departments, but a closer inspection of the chassis underneath shows that a complete rewire is going to be necessary, as well as any component replacements that may be required. At the moment I'm just contemplating the set and working out what to do next.
I'd really like to restore the chassis completely, but I'm a bit foxed about how to go about this. I'm sure most members here will be familiar with these matters, but much of this is new-ish to me. For example, how do I go about removing the coils and their cans? They seem to be held in with two tabs bent up from the chassis, is it simply a matter of unbending these? Also with regard to removing the tagstrips, valve holders etc., clearly the brass eyelets can be drilled out, but are these available, and what would be an acceptable replacement? I would like to strip the chassis, spray in zinc primer with a silver coat over the top, and reassemble. My vague plan was to keep as much of the interconnections intact as I do this, supplanted by photos, so that I can put everything back as it should be. I hope this sounds like a plausible modus operandi.
I'm going to try and attach a few photographs of the chassis to indicate what I'm up against. There is also a small disintegrating wirewound component, which I initially took to be a choke, but closer inspection makes me suspect it's a dropper of some kind. Perhaps someone could put me straight?

[Yarraman]

you are certainly taking on a mammoth task. I just finished an Ekco radio that took a year to complete. it was very rusty, flaky rust too. I ended up stripping the chassis down completely, using a disc grinder in parts to get back to the bare metal and then using Phosphoric acid which is dangerous and toxic to breath in(though I dont think youll need a grinder for yours). I first made sure the important components (that maybe impossible to get) were still ok, like the transformers, RF & IF coils etc. Do you have a schematic? that will tell you what the values are of the components. you will need to change the Caps and "out of tolerance" or burnt out resistors. Then there's getting it going again.
My advice is to start with a smaller project or projects before this one or find someone who has the experience of restoration to help you.

[joebog1]

I believe Yarraman has it !!
BUT do not discard the Philips!!

Perhaps keep your ears open and a nose to the ground and try a simpler restore as your first "educational project".

A complete strip and rebuild is NOT as easy as it sounds, even if only a few components are involved.
With best wishes for success
Joe

[Ti Pwun]

Holy Moley! That's a candidate for a complete strip-down, a date with an Evaporust bath and then a rebuild.

I would agree, though, that it would be a major job and one that could very easily become something you find overwhelming. My first restoration attempt was a rusty old relic like that and it became a chore that I wasn't enjoying. Many years later I can view something like this as a back-burner project; a little bit at a time in between something that is going to see quicker results.

But if you're determined and happy to take it on as a pretty long-term project, no reason why you can't do that. Plenty of help and encouragement on a forum like this. It is a nice looking radio and I can see why you were attracted to it.

Check out a guy on Youtube by the name 'joernone' (John from Arkansas) - he has plenty of videos that I think will put you in the 'little bit at a time, take your time' mindset that is needed for something like this.

Good luck with it.

[crackle]

I am not brave enough to contemplate a complete strip down of a chassis. Some say that a perfectly clean and shiny chassis looks out of place in a vintage radio.
But having said that your one is rather rusty. Why not do what ever you feel able to with the cabinet, and at the same time look around for another example of the same radio which may have a tatty cabinet but better chassis.

Mike

[mark pirate]

That does look in rather a sorry state, my 470A did have some rust, but it was mainly confined to the speaker.
Personally, I would take loads of close up photos before stripping it down.
Evaporust is the stuff to use, it does an excellent job

Mark

[GeoffK]

The wirewound resistor if that is what it is, could be R12 the 2K HT (apart from the O/P valve anode) resistor. On such a radio that has been stored very badly I would only try to stabilise the rusty chassis with suitable rust curing paint while leaving as much of the original wiring in place, even the crumbling rubber doesn't matter if the wires are not touching anything. Or the wires can be cut at one end and new sleeving slide over. If the tags holding the RF and IF cans are prised open they will never go back down properly again. Most of the resistors are probably still within their tolerance, it is only the larger black capacitors and the electrolytics ( C17, C18, C23) that need replacing. Sometimes the black caps are still ok, C19 0.01uF is 'That Cap' the output valve V3 control grid coupler. The speaker is very rusty and will need attention.

[Sideband]

Oliver 35.
Here is my account of restoring one of these sets. I also had to do some major rewiring but generally the set was in much better condition than yours. However I hope the write-up gives you some idea of what will be involved. Incidentally I shied away from removing the IF coils as well!

[Oliver35]

Gosh- I'm surprised at the swiftness of response on this forum- it's most gratifying!
Many thanks for all your comments. I have to confess, although i did have a rough idea of the condition this thing was in before I bought it, I was slightly daunted to see the extent of matters underneath the chassis. Fortunately I'm not averse to a restoration project- I've been restoring all sorts of odd items for years, but the combination of skills and processes presented by a wireless (especially this example) is a new departure for me. I think the 'little bit at a time' approach is a good one- I have used it on previous projects where I've felt slightly out of my depth- and it's actually quite satisfying, making one project effectively into several small and satisfying ones. The trick, I suppose, is working out how to subdivide the work. I'm going to stare at it for a week or two, I think, and perhaps then embark on the speaker and the transformer sub-chassis, and see where I can go from there. I shall read Sideband's a/c as well before I take the plunge.
I must say though, all the enthusiasm and support on here is impressive. Whilst I was lurking away previously, reading all the restoration threads I had been struck by the friendly atmosphere here. Not always the case on internet forums!

[telstar]

Hi Oliver.
The Philips 470A radio, once restored works very well indeed. My chassis was not too bad condition.
The electrolytics require replacing (new ones inside the old cans); the scale lamp bulb should be rated at 4 volts @ 0.5 amps (should be available from suppliers in Holland).
Good luck
Mike

[electrogram]

It doesnt look too bad. The idea of removing everything from the chassis, cleaning it, and replacing the parts, sounds very daunting. You could end up with a good working radio without going to that trouble. Personally i dont like very shiny squeaky clean internals in old radios but others have different ideas.

[Oliver35]

Thanks for all the help and suggestions thus far- the set has undergone a period of blank contemplation this morning, along with a glut of photographs being taken and a quick tour of the IF transformers with a multimeter. I don't currently know what the correct readings should be, but they all seem to read, which is something.
With regard to the repair/restore argument, this is something I wrestle with quite often on various projects, as I can see merit in both approaches, but I think in this instance I would like to see the chassis restored, if I feel brave enough. So long as there are people out there adopting both approaches, our technological heritage should be well represented!

I should also say that I've now got both the schematic and the trader's sheet in which to immerse myself.

[ms660]

To do up or not to do up, it's an old argument, me, I wouldn't bother too much with the chassis, brush of any loose stuff then give the radio a service if needed to get it working properly.

I've seen some very good chassis refurb jobs done that have obviously had a lot of time and attention to detail spent on them but at the end of the day it won't be original condition. An old radio has history, all the lumps, dents and scratches are part of it.

Lawrence.

[mark pirate]

I agree with Lawrence, just clean of the worst of the rust and replace the rotten wiring and recap it. Once it is working, you could always decide to strip it down for a full rebuild at a later date.

My set had also been stored badly in a damp shed when I got it, the speaker cloth had just rotted away. I replaced most of the wiring and the capacitors, and it now works very well.

Mark

[SeanStevens]

Yes, I agree with Mark - get it running first. Subsequent actions will depend on what you find when it is being made to work. Imagine the disappointment of finding that really expensive parts are required AFTER polishing the chassis. Or, when it is running perfectly it is not such a great performer.

SEAN

[stitch1]

Another vote for retaining the patina

I've never attempted a complete chassis rebuild but if I was going to I'd make sure the set was working first. I find small changes in values, wiring and physical location can introduce faults or necessitate re-alignment never mind stripping and rebuilding.

Some people do successfully do this and the results are stunning (if not to my taste) so I'll watch with interest, good luck.

John

[Boater Sam]

Another vote for getting it working first. It will give you satisfaction and you will learn something at the same time.

Then if you wish to tart it up I would carefully de-rust chemically without taking many components off, certainly not the IF cans or anything riveted.

See about using Fertan, its not as clean to use as Phosphoric acid eg. Jenolite but is not corrosive either.

Seen the results of stripping a set down to restore and too many times has it lead to the set being tipped because it proves too much work to complete or it never works again.
And that is a pretty radio, it deserves better.

See if you can find a horrible Ekco A104 with its plastic chip cutter grill hanging off, or a Cossor 500 Melody Maker, at least it will have a mains transformer and a chassis easier to work on, Oh, and its worth next to nothing too.

[Sideband]

I've also seen the results of 'over enthusiastic' chassis restoration. It looks nothing like the original chassis and also I think it just looks like a reproduction of an old set....especially when the restorer replaces all the resistors as well as the caps. The set then has no age.

Personally I would remove the worst of the rust and treat it, then keep as many of the original components as possible, disguising capacitors in the old capacitor cases if practical.

I always try to keep 'above decks' looking original at least (I did this with my own 470A) since disguising the new capacitors inside the old wasn't practical. However with my 274A, I restuffed all the caps easily and it looks completely original.

How far you go is up to you but I'd certainly try to get the set going first and then decide.

[Lloyd 1985]

I've had sets with chassis rusted like this, one was a Philips TV, I managed to improve the chassis appearance with a gel type rust remover, as it was mostly the top of the chassis that had rusted. I got away with not removing much from the chassis at all! Takes a lot of time and patience. I have also gone the whole hog on one radio, a round Ekco which was in a horrible state (very rusty chassis, broken cabinet..) I completely stripped the chassis bar a few parts that were riveted in place then chucked the whole lot in an ultrasonic cleaner, even the cloth covered wiring, which actually came up lovely and was re-used! I then re-painted the chassis with the closest match to the original paint I could find and rebuilt it. It was the first I'd ever done, and so far I've not done another! You need loads of before photo's, some doodles and little tags on the ends of any disconnected wires or component legs, then photo's of the wires with the tags before disconnection. Took me weeks just to label everything up, but it was worth it as it all went back together perfectly and worked first time too. I probably have 'over restored' it, but I'm happy with it, and that's what counts! Certainly nice to open it up and find it nice and clean and not get covered in bits of flaking rust or black stuff that seems to be in every old radio or TV I come across.

Regards,
Lloyd.

[David G4EBT]

On the broad topic of whether or not to totally strip a radio which is in a bad state with a rusty chassis, it depends on how much time, commitment and skill you have to see the job through, or whether you prefer to just ‘do it up and get it working’. That’s a personal choice, and in part, depends on whether you’re more of a collector of nice looking radios, or your primary interest is in restoration. In my case, I enjoy restoring sets, and then become a ‘collector’ by default as I don’t like parting with sets. I’ve never bought a set just to ‘collect’. Some people like collecting, and so long as the set looks nice from the outside, leave it unrestored inside.

Just my view, but I think your Philips is a tad beyond the 'do it up a bit' stage. Below are a few comments which might help in deciding whether or not to go the full distance Oliver.

A couple of years ago after much dithering, I decided to set to and do a complete restoration on a 1935 Ekco A77. It was either that, or scrap it for spares as it was way past the ‘do it up’ option, which isn’t one that I favour anyway. Due to other commitments it’s an ongoing project, which I do a bit at as and when time permits. It’s on two chassis – the power supply being separate from the receiver. Having stripped both chassis, I considered getting them sand-blasted but as I had an ‘electric file’ I used that outdoors with a face mask and goggles to de-rust both chassis. (Not a good idea to use one's lungs as an air filter!). I primed the chassis with acid-etch primer, then sprayed it with Halfords ‘Ford Dove Gray’ paint, which Gary Tempest tipped me off was a very close match to the original, as indeed it is.

The power supply is rebuilt, tested and working, the speaker re-furbished & field coil rewound, and the mains chassis is back together and ready for re-wiring. Ordinarily I don’t bother re-stuffing old capacitors and the like, but I have with this set as I think modern ones would be too out of place, not that they’re on display.

I took lots of photos and made drawings as I dismantled the set, and now have a spare set to use as a reference point for the re-wiring. I’ve attached a few before & after pics as an indication of what’s involved. It’s not a sought after set, and some may argue that it doesn’t merit the time and effort involved, but I’m enjoying the challenge that it’s presented, and after all, that’s what hobbies are about – the relaxing and enjoyable use of scarce leisure time.

My ‘electric file’ is just a cheap Aldi one, similar to this sort of thing. I’ve found it invaluable for de-rusting all sorts of items:

http://www.toolandfix.com/silverline...FeEp0wodJ1gPSA

First pic is the set as found,
Second is chassis stripped and de-rusted ready for priming,
Third pic is the chassis from the front, reassembled ready for re-wiring,
The last pic is from the rear.
(The power supply on a separate chassis and is completed and tested).

Hope that helps a bit.