Television's opening night on BBC 4

[dseymo1]

Originally Posted by n_r_muir

The one thing that I did get from the programme was that it clearly showed just how superior the EMI/Marconi system was in comparison to the Baird system at least in terms of the practicality of TV programme production. Trying to compensate for the processing delay of the intermediate film system and mixing in continuity announcements or live action scenes would have been an absolute nightmare.

While the Baird system had a number of drawbacks, I don't think the time delay was one of them.
Consider the 'digitising delay' intrinsic in today's systems, of which the majority of viewers are oblivious.
Apart from the cost of film, there's no reason why the continuity announcements etc. couldn't all have been done via intermediate film, maintaining the delay.
In the unlikely event of the system having been adopted, I suspect that some sort of erasable, reusable film might have been developed (Xerography, perhaps?).
In addition, the system was already ripe for telecine as we know it, although the Gaumont British stake might have precluded the televising of commercial releases.

[PaulM]

So whereas the M-EMI maintained the black level right up to the modulator, in the Baird system the black level was wandering about according to picture content, hence the requirement for deeper sync pulses. Is that correct?

Absolutely - the black level was not an accurately defined modulation depth and would depend on average picture level. I wonder if any of the Metrovick TV transmitter schematics survive somewhere? The Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester holds the company archives.

Cheers,

Paul M

[emeritus]

Using IF for continuity would have required the provision of a second IF unit. As noted on another thread, Baird only had one camera, a bespoke model with a 1000' magazine of 17.5mm film that gave a maximum run time of about 21 mins. Lacing up a new magazine of film through the gate and sound head, and then threading it through the processing tank could not have been done instantly. Possibly the start of the film of the new magazine would have been spliced to the end of the previous one between the camera and the processing tank to avoid having to lace it up afresh, and the chemicals might have needed replenishing.

[Ted Kendall]

When considering the Baird system as a whole, the words "frightful lash-up" spring to mind. No name-check either for Blumlein in the programme, arguably the real hero of the story.

[AC/HL]

Originally Posted by dseymo1

In the unlikely event of the system having been adopted, I suspect that some sort of erasable, reusable film might have been developed (Xerography, perhaps?).

I believe the film was developed, scanned wet, and then washed recoated and re-used, whether immediately or not I'm not sure.

[stevehertz]

Originally Posted by Ted Kendall

When considering the Baird system as a whole, the words "frightful lash-up" spring to mind. No name-check either for Blumlein in the programme, arguably the real hero of the story.

Heath Robinson springs just as easily to mind, spinning wheels, papier mache dummies, flashing lights, stuff being dragged through baths of bubbling liquid..

[Heatercathodeshort]

Originally Posted by Ted Kendall

When considering the Baird system as a whole, the words "frightful lash-up" spring to mind. No name-check either for Blumlein in the programme, arguably the real hero of the story.

Yes this has been a sore point with me since my earliest days as a lad playing with old television receivers.

Without Blumlein and the whole EMI team I doubt if the World's first regular high definition television service would have been launched in 1936, the quality of which was envied by most countries and was still in service as late as 1984.

Baird had his part to play but in my opinion he was a showman who woke up the technical World to develop electronic television.

I believe that if Alan Blumlein had not been killed during the war [testing high frequency radar,] he would have been granted more credit for television development post 1945.The tragedy had to be kept quiet and no doubt this contributed to his lack of recognition.

The IF system was total madness considering we had the all electronic EMI system. I have read that it was only the fact that Baird wrote to King GeorgeV1 complaining that he was being pushed aside in favour of EMI that his contraption was allowed a test period.

Baird may have been the first to demonstrate moving 'pictures' via radio but it could hardly be described as a practical television service.

80 years! [and we still have it working. Regards, John.

[emeritus]

While technically possible, I would be surprised if Baird would have re-used his film. As far as I am aware, the only film technology that existed at the time was conventional silver halide, requiring preparation and coating in total darkness. Old films were often stripped of their coatings to reclaim the silver content, but I don't think it would have been economical to reclaim and re-coat the plastic film base, which was probably cellulose nitrate for its cheapness and superior durabilty. After stripping completely clean and recoating, it would have had to be dried before use, and drying 1000' of film would have required a substantial drying cabinet that would surely have been remarked on.

The image of a 17.5mm frame in the linked document of #6 on this thread https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=131081 shows film having the type of rounded-cornered rectangular perforations that are used for projection prints (and 35mm still camera film). Film for use in 35mm movie cameras normally have so-called "Bell and Howell" perforations whose short sides are shorter that those of projection prints, and circular rather than straight, similar to the shape of the screen of old metal cone CRT TVs. The space occupied by Baird's sound track is, in camera film, normally occupied by printed edge markings identifying the film type and footage numbering, so he would have had to have had his film stock made on a 35mm base without the normal edge printing, as well as having it specially perforated and slit.

[McMurdo]

Here's a scan of a sketch of an IF process I found in a book from the mid 30's

[Richard Byrnes]

This is a fascinating thread and I agree that the proogramme dealt with 'popular' issues rather that technical ones.

I worked at Cintel (later Rank Cintel) from 1951 to 1959 first in the design office where a chap named Lawrie designed the first of Cintel's telecines and then later in the High Vacuum Physics labs where we made the PE tube that went into the above telecine.

My particular interest here is trying to trace that telecine so that I could have a trip down memory lane. Has anyone any ideas about that please?

Cheers, Richard.

[Ted Kendall]

I think the description of the IF process is a bit off the mark, at least as far as German practice is concerned. Was there not a C4 programme of IF extracts from the German service? - in which case at least some if it was done on permanent film.

[red16v]

Originally Posted by Richard Byrnes

My particular interest here is trying to trace that telecine so that I could have a trip down memory lane. Has anyone any ideas about that please?

I'm afraid I can't answer your question Richard, but as someone who operated and maintained some RC telecines I'd be interested to hear any stories or anecdotes you might have on their development. I started off on a 'colourised' Mk1 - which sort of implies it was originally a monochrome channel and given the reference to 'Mk1' perhaps implies it was part of RC's first production series? - not to be confused with the very first machine made, the one you are looking for!

Please free to start a separate thread if you have anything to add as this might otherwise take this thread off topic. Looking forward to anything you can tell!

[emeritus]

I used to have a number of links to websites about IF film on my work computer, but didn't make notes of them when I retired. I had a Google text search this morning, and only found some Youtube TV films that do show snatches of the IF film apparatus. Then I followed a link that had images of the mobile IF apparatus and struck gold.

First I found an article in English that describes the mobile IF truck used at the 1936 Olympics, and briefly mentions a continuous loop film process which included a step of stripping the old emulsion. Then I hit the jackpot, a German site (Live + 85 sec) that comprehensively describes and illustrates all the Telefunken IF processes, including continuous loop ones. The site is in German, and I was going to write a synopsis of its text, but Google translate makes a pretty good job of it. No point in my going into details here, it's worth a good read: lots of illustrations of the actual equipment, including a large screen projector that converted a received TV signal to film for theatre projection. It transpires that several examples of IF equipment still exist in the Deutches Museum in Munich. It is remarked that few people are aware of the existence of the continuous loop IF processes. Special films with very thin emulsions were used to achieve short processing times.

What I haven't been able to find is the site that said that the cloudy weather during the 1936 Olympics meant that the electronic cameras saw little use due to their poor sensitivity.

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http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~...elevision.html

In English. About Zeiss Icon. Has a description of Berlin 1936 IF process and others

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https://www.fktg.org/node/5663/dieae...henfilmgeraete

Live + 85 s Comprehensive web site in German about the IF processes of the 1930's, use google translate for English.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYNQmPjcvN0


Fernsehen im dritten Reich Teil 1

Intermediate film clip at 10.15 to 10.40

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLDcA51lKqA

Fernsehen unterm Hakenkreuz

7.40 shows the black box used by continuity announcers

11.45 the 1936 Olympics

12.38 - 12.52 IF clip of football match between Austria and Poland.

29.15 and 39.06 The only remaining pre-war German electronic TV camera.

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[Ted Kendall]

Strewth! Chapter and verse. Fascinating stuff.

[emeritus]

While re-installing my stuff following a catastrophic laptop hard drive failure, I came across a version of the "Fernsehen unterm Hakenkreuz" film with an English commentary and subtitles here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-AUOclEh4Y


Although the commentary refers to the mobile IF system used for the Berlin Olympics introducing a delay of about one minute, the comprehensive IF film process article "Live + 85s" web site (see #114) says that this was the delay of the original mobile IF film unit, which scanned wet. A second mobile IF unit was used for the 1936 Olympics which dried the film before transmission, and this introduced a delay of more than 2 minutes.

[dave walsh]

This is all really great stuff. Thanks for the links! It may have been used in the CH4 Documentary on Pre War German TV broadcast a few years back.

Dave W

[davew001]

Interesting article on BBC news about Andy Andrews, 104, who was an apprentice engineer with Baird posted today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-38080275

[draenog]

There's now a footnote to the article:

*Since the publication of this article it has emerged that Mr Andrews died on Monday.*

[julie_m]

That's a shame At least we got to hear his final words, though .....

[Dave Moll]

Although the footnote gives no date, given that the article is dated 22nd December I assume it refers to Monday just gone - 19th December.