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Old 26th May 2012, 7:41 pm   #141
'LIVEWIRE?'
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Presumably most members are aware that some other forums, such as, e.g., diyaudio.com., allow limited commercial advertising (usually by companies in the electronics industry, IIRC-haven't visited DIY Audio lately) and voluntary donations. I believe Hi Fi Engine and Vinyl Engine both operate in a similar manner. Might something along these lines be a way to finance this forum too?

Like others, I would be prepared to pay a modest fee or make donations to help if need be.
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Old 26th May 2012, 8:08 pm   #142
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This site:
http://www.cigarettecardcollecting.com/
finances itself by allowing advertizing to be inserted. It's easy to ignore it so it isn't too intrusive. Might be another way of doing it. I'm sure the webmaster could provide further details if necessary.
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Old 26th May 2012, 8:41 pm   #143
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I've always thought advertising on websites lowers the tone and clutters everything up, especially if you don't have a large monitor. I'd be more than happy to pay to use this forum if it means advertising is avoided.
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Old 26th May 2012, 8:48 pm   #144
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Forums such as those provided by Yuku in the USA have a scheme where, for example every $10 paid, the system will remove adverts for 50,000 page views. Each member can decide on how many adverts are tolerable and subscribe accordingly. The downside is that adverts will be a bandwidth hog for those on dial-up or with slow ADSL connections.

Cheers

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Old 26th May 2012, 9:27 pm   #145
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Hi,

I did send a PM to Paul but I think it probably went somewhere. I would be more than willing to put a few quid in the kitty. This happened to a forum that I frequent reasonably often and it worked out at something like 60P per month. This is not a suggestion price wise for this forum but just used as an example. I don't think that we can afford to lose this invaluable resource.

Cheers,
Geoff.
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Old 26th May 2012, 10:36 pm   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff 555 View Post
I don't think that we can afford to lose this invaluable resource.
Hear, hear!

Having come back to this thread after a day away from the PC, the one thing that strikes me is how passionate people are about this forum.

Quote:
Not once when I was moderating did I think, "cor this stuff is earth shatteringly important, I must ensure that this information is preserved ad infinitum"
Personally, I found this upsetting. I too am with the err on the side of caution brigade when it comes to what to keep and what to delete.

True, colllecting old radios may only be a silly old hobby, but it's a wonderful distraction from the harsh realities of day-to-day life, and I'm sure has been responsible for keeping many of us sane

Nick
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Old 26th May 2012, 10:48 pm   #147
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Hi,

Without this forum I might well be reduced to sending myself a Christmas card (as in Mr Bean). I have made several friends on here.

Michael
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Old 26th May 2012, 11:24 pm   #148
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If the forum stayed separate from the BVWS, I'd be willing to put something in the kitty, despite not being half as active at the moment as I'd like to be. A few pounds a year is not much for the information exchanged here. I would however, at the very least, expect some form of financial accountability, and preferably organisational accountability also. It has always struck me as a very well run forum for the vast majority of the time, but that doesn't mean that accountability would not go amiss. It is the de facto forum for the hobby, at least in the UK, and with the power that represents then saying that if you don't like it you can always leave, whilst entirely true, is an abuse of that power.

Alternatively I would be more than happy to see it go under BVWS management, if that was possible. Thats possibly not the best way of putting it though - as I'd hope the BVWS would delegate the day to day running to the current team of mods, who may or may not be BVWS members.

As a BVWS member I would have no objection to it still being a public forum. I wouldn't feel miffed at all in indirectly subsidising other's free access - though perhaps it is fair if non-members should pay a small fee to have posting rights?

I wouldn't under any circumstances want to see it be totally private with neither read nor write access unless that person has paid - I think that would be a shot in the foot for the hobby, the forum itself, and maybe the BVWS. A forum is not just a source of information, its a marketing device for that which it represents - be it the hobby, the forum itself as a body, or any body (e.g. the BVWS) that might take ownership in the future.

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Old 26th May 2012, 11:49 pm   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppppenguin View Post
The ephemerality of the web is a big challenge to the library and archive community. I like to feel that our business here at UKVRR is preservation of history and feel a kinship with the library and archive folk.
I agree totally - and yes, even the For Sale adverts, with price (one of the rules!), might be interesting in 10 years.

But, other posts - there could be no reason to keep them. This thread is 150+ posts already, with no technical content whatever. So if in the fullness of time the whole thread were to be deleted, then it would not be much of a loss. Sure, members' post counts would go down a bit, but I would not lose much sleep about that.
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Old 27th May 2012, 12:00 am   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kalee20 View Post

But, other posts - there could be no reason to keep them. This thread is 150+ posts already, with no technical content whatever. So if in the fullness of time the whole thread were to be deleted, then it would not be much of a loss. Sure, members' post counts would go down a bit, but I would not lose much sleep about that.
I'd not lose sleep exactly. But, the forum too has its history. There's already a published history (a little out of date now) of the BVWS. If the funding, policies and/or management of the forum are to change, the positions taken and responses recorded in this thread may be critical in determining what they will be in the coming years. Surely worth a few kilobytes of memory, whoever is to be their custodian?

Paul
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Old 27th May 2012, 12:19 am   #151
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I have watched this generally very well-mannered debate proceed with interest, but have felt I can add little.
As a recently-retired chap this forum has changed a minor hobby back into the passion it was years ago.
So:
The BVWS might chose to make an ex-gratia payment to help the forum. It can afford it. Not full costs, just a contribution.U
The BVWS is not the right body to run an open forum but should encourage it. I for one like the idea of users from all backgrounds having open, free access.
A lot of people myself included will happily press a "donate now" button as soon as one is installed. Donations are a healthy way of funding. Subscriptions imply a sort of inertia and are less satisfying to the individual.
I happen to think that firm regulation is better than anarchy but that consistent and transparent regulation is essential.
As for culling data, I can't believe that an "archive" section can't be provided. I ran a large mySQL database for a while and regular archiving was essential to keep performance up. But the archive is stall accessible.
This is not a major contribution to the debate, but thanks to Paul et al for sticking with it so I can associate with such a helpful and generous bunch of forum members.
- Jeremy
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Old 27th May 2012, 12:23 am   #152
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We have been told on several occasions now that the size of the forum content in terms of the space it occupies on a hard drive is not the problem, rather the volume of traffic accessing various threads loading the server.

That being the case could someone please explain why the 'skip' of 46000 posts, which was already inaccessible to members, needed to be deleted at all to reduce server load. Surely because it was inaccessible it would have no bearing on the volume of traffic whether it existed or not?

Regards
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Old 27th May 2012, 12:40 am   #153
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Ok, it seems clear that members here appreciate and value the archive of material here, an excellent example being the Avo 8 survey.
It is also quite clear the majority are willing to pay for this, especially if this ensures it's preservation.
But we also want to maintain a forum that is free to use and unilateral. Passing members are to be welcomed, even encouraged. They'll come back eventually. No badges declaring who's paid up and who hasn't.
We also need a mechanism to remove the dross democratically.
So here's the idea.
All forum posts can be viewed for up to six weeks after the last post.
During that time, any member can nominate it for archive. This could be achieved with a button, similar to the report post button.
If after six weeks it has received no nominations, then the post is deleted.
To view the archive, there is a annual fee. This would subsidise the "free" forum.
If people want to ask the odd simple question, that's fine. These are usually answered in a matter of hours, even minutes.
If people want to go back and look at historical data, then this is a value added service and is only right this should be charged for.
So, we will need to appoint a curator.
You may have just talked yourself into a job, Jeffrey.
On a final note, and I apologise now for being flippant, I can't help but think of the poor child who has just discovered that Tony Hart doesn't actually keep all the paintings he has been sent.
Cheers,
Rob.
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Old 27th May 2012, 1:05 am   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glowinganode View Post
...
All forum posts can be viewed for up to six weeks after the last post.
During that time, any member can nominate it for archive. This could be achieved with a button, similar to the report post button.
If after six weeks it has received no nominations, then the post is deleted.
To view the archive, there is a annual fee. This would subsidise the "free" forum...
Just to refer to a very recent instance from my own experience, I've had the privilege of reuniting a Clifton MQ1 tape recorder from 1950 or so with the son of the machine's designer and manufacturer. As I understand it, he came to the forum because a Google search for the very obscure machine led him to a 2005 thread here in which it was mentioned. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my (very fallible) understanding is that, if access to the archive were restricted to paying members, search engines wouldn't get to 'see' it any more. To me, that's a telling indication of the value of a large archive that's open for all the world to see.

All else aside, why create more work for someone when, apparently, pretty much everything has been working really quite well here but for the requirement of some cash to secure adequate and unproblematic hosting with accommodation for all that anyone's ever cared to say? There seems ample evidence in this thread that a good many of us are ready, willing and able to dip our hands into our pockets in that cause, without looking for any privileges, simply to maintain the forum we have come to know and to value.

Paul
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Old 27th May 2012, 1:19 am   #155
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To clarify things, why don't we have a forum rule to state something like "The moderators of this forum reserve the right, without reason or notice, to edit, move or permanently delete any content posted on this forum"?

Regards
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Old 27th May 2012, 2:28 am   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickthedentist View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff 555 View Post
I don't think that we can afford to lose this invaluable resource.
Hear, hear!

Having come back to this thread after a day away from the PC, the one thing that strikes me is how passionate people are about this forum.

Quote:
Not once when I was moderating did I think, "cor this stuff is earth shatteringly important, I must ensure that this information is preserved ad infinitum"
Personally, I found this upsetting. I too am with the err on the side of caution brigade when it comes to what to keep and what to delete.

True, colllecting old radios may only be a silly old hobby, but it's a wonderful distraction from the harsh realities of day-to-day life, and I'm sure has been responsible for keeping many of us sane

Nick
Well put Nick, 100% agree on both points.
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Old 27th May 2012, 2:40 am   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio_Dave View Post
why don't we have a forum rule to state something like "The moderators of this forum reserve the right, without reason or notice, to edit, move or permanently delete any content posted on this forum"?
I for one have no intention of trying to write technically accurate posts, to the best of my ability, for the benefit of other members only to have them deleted without apparent just cause . Perhaps you are happy to waste your time, I am not.
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Old 27th May 2012, 3:35 am   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimS View Post
If the forum stayed separate from the BVWS, I'd be willing to put something in the kitty, despite not being half as active at the moment as I'd like to be. A few pounds a year is not much for the information exchanged here. I would however, at the very least, expect some form of financial accountability, and preferably organisational accountability also. It has always struck me as a very well run forum for the vast majority of the time, but that doesn't mean that accountability would not go amiss. It is the de facto forum for the hobby, at least in the UK, and with the power that represents then saying that if you don't like it you can always leave, whilst entirely true, is an abuse of that power.
How true!

I fully accept that we must pay for goods or services that we use, and am fully prepared to do so...but...
IMHO, We need to be very careful how we proceed. If I am a paying customer, I will have a different idea of what I pay money to accept.
As a free member I have the choice to accept OR not the Moderation and style of the Forum as it stands (which is "If you don't like it...the door is over there) That's fine
BUT
If I am to be a paying customer, I will want to be treat as one ( a company who treats it's paying customers with this attitude will soon have no customers left)

I would not pay to be given a lesson in English with my mistakes highlighted in red (are the moderators all qualified English teachers?)
As far as thread deletion is concerned... I would err on the side of caution when deleting threads as lots of good info could be lost, but if we really do need to loose threads why not start with things like the CATS thread before a technical one. I love the little critters as much as anyone, but if we need the space...come on! I also noticed a recent post about the Olympic Torch was locked as OT for this forum, yet the CAT thread is not?? We need a consistent rule, and it must be seen to be fair...That was not.

If I pay for a service it needs to be a much more professional and polished, accountable version of the current "Privately owned house arrangement"
If I open my house as a free coffee shop I can institute as many rules as I like, but if I open a shop to sell coffee I will need to be a whole lot more on the ball, otherwise I will loose customers and go bust.

I really do not want to see us self destruct here guy's, I am not a word perfect typist, I am an Anorak that loves old telly's, video recorders and for most here radio's, so are most of the people reading this Forum, we really don't need to have a grammatically perfect Forum with perfect capital letters and full stops, as long as it is readable and not in text speak...Do we?

History tells us of someone else who wanted a perfect world with perfect people...and look what happened to him!

Let's not look for differences to squabble about, save that for the Electricity or Gas companies...or those annoying bs that try to sell us things on our doorsteps
We have a great hobby and a couple of great places to chat to other like minded guy's (and Girls) Do we really want to see it all go just because we can not agree on how to talk to each other?

PS. Just because I am not paying for this yet, don't highlight the myriad of mistakes that I have no doubt made in red
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Old 27th May 2012, 7:30 am   #159
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I think post #158 by Chris, repairman 1234, more or less sums up how I feel as well, on the few occasions that I've made a typing error which has been highlighted, or a post disappearing without explanation ( and I'm very careful when posting in view of the moderation policy ) I've never queried these as doing so would no doubt bring a response something like “the forums free, if you don't like it go and play somewhere else”, now I've accepted this on a free forum, but would strongly object to paying to be on a forum where I'm transported back 65 years to my days in infants school for making the odd mistake.

John.
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Old 27th May 2012, 8:29 am   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul_RK View Post

Correct me if I'm wrong, but my (very fallible) understanding is that, if access to the archive were restricted to paying members, search engines wouldn't get to 'see' it any more. To me, that's a telling indication of the value of a large archive that's open for all the world to see.

There seems ample evidence in this thread that a good many of us are ready, willing and able to dip our hands into our pockets in that cause, without looking for any privileges, simply to maintain the forum we have come to know and to value.

Paul
Paul, I don't dispute any of what you say, but please don't shoot me down at the first hurdle.
I'm just trying to find a solution that will work and be agreeable to all.
How about if the achive had a preview function, so it does appear on search engines, perhaps with reduced sized thumb nails and the first couple of lines of text.
In fact maybe something as simple as the size of photo accessible, I'd gladly pay to be able to post or view larger photo's.
Like it or not, the service is going to have to be paid for somehow, to keep the cash flowing some sort of incentive has to be offered.
Rob.
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