LNB Para-Lab 20’s - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

dannybgoode · 27th Jul 2019, 7:56 pm

Hi all

I’m new to the forum - thought I’d join in the fun as I’ve recently been getting well into vintage gear. Have a Yamaha CA810 I bought the other day and a Sony 337ESD CD player - both just lovely.

But what brought me here was a couple of old posts I found when looking into some LNB Para-Lab 20’s which I saw for sale. The info on here convinced me to take a trip to Nottingham to pick them up. 2 hour round trip later and £75 lighter and here they are!

Initial thoughts - incredibly natural and neutral. They certainly don’t sound 45 years old - really very pleased

According to the chap I bought them off this is one of the first pairs, if not the first pair hence the silver super tweeters (most are black). Story goes they had a load of Kef and Coles drivers knocking about so threw these together and they just sounded so right.

He bought them off the chap who put them together - said gentleman built a pair and took them home. Sold them to the guy I got them off a couple of years ago at a lay-by somewhere. Don’t know if @LNBAudio or anyone else can confirm any of this story?

For £75 they’re exceptional. If anyone sees a pair and wants to know whether to buy them - yes, absolutely. They’re very lovely.

RojDW48 · 28th Jul 2019, 12:38 am

I have a pair - yes they are excellent. Essentially transmission lines. Hence the lack of resonance and clean response. I think co-designer Mike Batt (I hope I have recalled that correctly) is a member of the forum. Loughborough's finest !!

ajgriff · 28th Jul 2019, 1:41 am

Mike Batten I think. Forum user name is LNBAudio. This thread has more information:

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=127201

Alan

dannybgoode · 28th Jul 2019, 7:22 am

Hi Alan. Yes saw that post - it’s one of the ones that convinced me to buy them. And they are lovely things - really nice sounding. Suit my CA 810 really well.

Was interested in the back story about their development - whether they were essentially just chucked together with a bunch of drivers and they just worked. Be interesting to know which LNB employee made these as well if they remember selling them in a lay-by a couple of years ago.

I’ve read elsewhere also that the MkI’s were 3 way as 3 way speakers back then weren’t taxed whereas 2 way ones were. When the tax system changed and VAT introduced on all goods they released the MkII’s which were 2 way.

ajgriff · 28th Jul 2019, 11:39 am

Tricky one Danny(?) and welcome to the forum by the way. It would seem that neither Mike Batten nor his son have been active here for a couple of years now. However, another forum member who is still in touch with one of them may pass by. Have to say that the story of your speakers does sound plausible and by repute they are excellent performers.

Alan

dannybgoode · 28th Jul 2019, 12:31 pm

Thanks Alan - will see if anyone pops up

. Got plenty of other stuff to post about - very much enjoying exploring vintage stuff from the late 70’s to the late 80’s.

Also am a full amateur licence holder too and have a sublime Kennie TS830M which I’ll share the details of in the relevant forum.

Meanwhile I’m kicking back and enjoying some Peter Rowan through the Yammie CA810 / LNB combo. The MC stage on the Yammie is exceptional.

LNBAudio · 30th Jul 2019, 7:17 pm

Hello Danny
I'm Mike's son, he hasn't seen the photos yet but he thinks that they're of one of probably a few hundred pairs sold.
The silver-coloured tweeter should be an STC 4001G, which was one of the cheapest decent units to make up a three-way speaker as suggested above.
The other units would be KEF's B200 and T27
The back is white melamine, and the terminal posts still have the original red dot denoting polarity, so externally at least your pair seem to be original.
I can't comment on the history of your pair without a bit more information
Hope that helps

LNBAudio · 30th Jul 2019, 9:43 pm

It would probably help to explain "as suggested above"...
The three-way speaker was an idea that "just sounded so right", rather than the thrown together comment

And no, no offence was taken

EDIT The silver tweeters were made by Standard Telephones and Cables Ltd (STC), which was bought in 1991 by Nortel if my googling is accurate

RojDW48 · 31st Jul 2019, 12:00 am

Yes - Nortel became STC - IIRC Coles took over manufacture of the STC super (but I don't know when - I believe they are still made). The STC super was my old dad's inspiration (he was an STC senior engineer during WW2) He reversed the operation of an HF microphone - I remember it well - he reckoned I might be able to hear some of the higher frequencies (at 8 yrs old). I could - it was quite painful!!

dannybgoode · 31st Jul 2019, 9:22 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by LNBAudio

It would probably help to explain "as suggested above"...
The three-way speaker was an idea that "just sounded so right", rather than the thrown together comment

And no, no offence was taken

EDIT The silver tweeters were made by Standard Telephones and Cables Ltd (STC), which was bought in 1991 by Nortel if my googling is accurate

Thanks so much for replying. Apologies I didn’t explain the back story very well. The chap I bought them off apparently bought them off the person that made them back in ‘75.

When I was chatting to the person I bought them off, he said he met the chap he bought them off in a lay-by as that’s where they arranged to meet. I only mentioned that bit in case it jogged anyone’s memory who may have been the original owner.

The original owner (ie the person who made them) apparently told the story that that these were one of the very early pairs and that when they were being developed, your father and others hit on the ideal combination of drivers and cabinet design etc very quickly - the early prototypes just sounded right without much further fettling. They had a stack of different drivers around and put this combo in and we’re very happy with the result.

This of course could be complete nonsense hence my post to see if there was any truth to the tale and absolutely no offence was meant

. I was just interested to know as I enjoy hearing about the background and stories behind the kit I own.

You can tell you father that they are one of the nicest most natural sounding speakers I’ve heard at any price. There’s a magic to them I just can’t quite put my finger on and I am very lucky to have stumbled across them. They ain’t going anywhere

. Indeed I am listening to them as I write this and am hearing snippets of tracks I’ve never noticed before.

dannybgoode · 31st Jul 2019, 9:26 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by RojDW48

Yes - Nortel became STC - IIRC Coles took over manufacture of the STC super (but I don't know when - I believe they are still made). The STC super was my old dad's inspiration (he was an STC senior engineer during WW2) He reversed the operation of an HF microphone - I remember it well - he reckoned I might be able to hear some of the higher frequencies (at 8 yrs old). I could - it was quite painful!!

Thanks for the information

. Yes you can still buy the Coles STC 4001G. It is good to know a replacement is available if required

LNBAudio · 1st Aug 2019, 5:44 am

Hello Danny
If your speakers were made in 1975 (if I'm interpreting your post correctly) then they'd be quite late. They were developed well before that (but I'll need to check the date). In 1974 they were priced at £99 per pair inc VAT.
The series I probably continued to 1976/1977, but again I'd need to check the dates with dad.

LNBAudio · 1st Aug 2019, 9:00 pm

Hello Danny
The dates are about right, and the STC units were bought in especially for dad's design. He thinks that the STC units were silver throughout production. The 3-way design lasted for maybe four years after VAT was introduced, so not such an interesting back story

A better story came with the introduction of the series II when Hi-Fi Answers magazine reviewed five pairs of speakers in 1977 in the £200-£300 price range. The Lab20 was cheapest and the reviewer was disappointed in the bass. He rang dad who'd been working on the same problem; dad described some changes to the fibreglass damping and put a pack of wool damping in the post to the reviewer. The changes were made and "the cheapest - the humble LNB Paralab 20 Ser II fared extremely well in the face of stiff opposition". The reviewer placed it third out of the five

RojDW48 · 1st Aug 2019, 11:58 pm

People are often 'disappointed' with the bass on these kind of transmission line designs....because they don't 'boom'. Bass is deeper and more accurate - and that does not always please the average listener.

dannybgoode · 2nd Aug 2019, 7:53 am

Thanks again for the responses. I’m not disappointed at all with the bass to be fair. I think they have a really nice balance top to bottom. That said the way the integrate with my BK XLS200 sub is unreal - just helps to open everything up a bit. Could happily live without the sub but the difference is enough to keep it in the chain.

Neat story about the MkII’s also. I’m surprised they only finished third. As far as vintage speakers I’m done for now - the MkI’s just do it for me

.

Trevor · 2nd Aug 2019, 8:57 am

Back in the day I worked in a small retail shop in Stoke on Trent we used to sell LNB and I me Mike on a few occasions had a cup of tea or two
His speakers were very nice and to be fair sounded well! The main thing against them was always the size but you cannot pot a quart into a pint pot
Very pleased to hear he is still with us
Trev

GrimJosef · 2nd Aug 2019, 10:37 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by RojDW48

People are often 'disappointed' with the bass on these kind of transmission line designs....because they don't 'boom'. Bass is deeper and more accurate - and that does not always please the average listener.

True of many accurate speakers, in fact. Once in a while it would benefit most hi-fi listeners, me included, to spend half an hour listening to an actual cellist playing an actual cello live. It resets the reference point for what bass really is.

Cheers,

GJ

Beobloke · 2nd Aug 2019, 1:05 pm

Back in my speaker-designing days, I remeber being at a concert at the Festival Hall with my boss, who was the company's senior acoustic engineer.

After....er....one or two shandies, we both jokingly concluded that the live and un-amplified double bass we were listening to didn't sound realistic at all....

LNBAudio · 3rd Aug 2019, 11:59 am

Here's a cutaway of what could be a series II Lab 6, the damping has been removed for clarity...

dannybgoode · 4th Aug 2019, 5:37 pm

So here’s a thing. Yesterday I was in my local hifi shop and was there mainly to demo a new Naim streamer. However, the Lab 20’s have given me a taste for detail and realism so I thought I’d try a pair of Spendor D7’s with a serious view to buying them.

You know what? For now at least I’m very happy with the 20’s. Sure the D7’s were better but they’re also £4k and if I’m honest whilst I’d love to have a pair at that price I’m sticking with the 20’s. They really are that brilliant.

27th Jul 2019, 7:56 pm	#1
dannybgoode Diode Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 8	LNB Para-Lab 20’s Hi all I’m new to the forum - thought I’d join in the fun as I’ve recently been getting well into vintage gear. Have a Yamaha CA810 I bought the other day and a Sony 337ESD CD player - both just lovely. But what brought me here was a couple of old posts I found when looking into some LNB Para-Lab 20’s which I saw for sale. The info on here convinced me to take a trip to Nottingham to pick them up. 2 hour round trip later and £75 lighter and here they are! Initial thoughts - incredibly natural and neutral. They certainly don’t sound 45 years old - really very pleased According to the chap I bought them off this is one of the first pairs, if not the first pair hence the silver super tweeters (most are black). Story goes they had a load of Kef and Coles drivers knocking about so threw these together and they just sounded so right. He bought them off the chap who put them together - said gentleman built a pair and took them home. Sold them to the guy I got them off a couple of years ago at a lay-by somewhere. Don’t know if @LNBAudio or anyone else can confirm any of this story? For £75 they’re exceptional. If anyone sees a pair and wants to know whether to buy them - yes, absolutely. They’re very lovely. Attached Thumbnails

28th Jul 2019, 12:38 am	#2
RojDW48 Nonode Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Bristol, UK. Posts: 2,074	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s I have a pair - yes they are excellent. Essentially transmission lines. Hence the lack of resonance and clean response. I think co-designer Mike Batt (I hope I have recalled that correctly) is a member of the forum. Loughborough's finest !! __________________ '....don't go mistaking Paradise for that home across the road!' (Bob Dylan)

28th Jul 2019, 1:41 am	#3
ajgriff Nonode Join Date: May 2004 Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,587	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Mike Batten I think. Forum user name is LNBAudio. This thread has more information: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=127201 Alan

28th Jul 2019, 7:22 am	#4
dannybgoode Diode Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 8	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Hi Alan. Yes saw that post - it’s one of the ones that convinced me to buy them. And they are lovely things - really nice sounding. Suit my CA 810 really well. Was interested in the back story about their development - whether they were essentially just chucked together with a bunch of drivers and they just worked. Be interesting to know which LNB employee made these as well if they remember selling them in a lay-by a couple of years ago. I’ve read elsewhere also that the MkI’s were 3 way as 3 way speakers back then weren’t taxed whereas 2 way ones were. When the tax system changed and VAT introduced on all goods they released the MkII’s which were 2 way.

28th Jul 2019, 11:39 am	#5
ajgriff Nonode Join Date: May 2004 Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 2,587	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Tricky one Danny(?) and welcome to the forum by the way. It would seem that neither Mike Batten nor his son have been active here for a couple of years now. However, another forum member who is still in touch with one of them may pass by. Have to say that the story of your speakers does sound plausible and by repute they are excellent performers. Alan

28th Jul 2019, 12:31 pm	#6
dannybgoode Diode Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 8	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Thanks Alan - will see if anyone pops up . Got plenty of other stuff to post about - very much enjoying exploring vintage stuff from the late 70’s to the late 80’s. Also am a full amateur licence holder too and have a sublime Kennie TS830M which I’ll share the details of in the relevant forum. Meanwhile I’m kicking back and enjoying some Peter Rowan through the Yammie CA810 / LNB combo. The MC stage on the Yammie is exceptional.

30th Jul 2019, 7:17 pm	#7
LNBAudio Triode Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Loughborough, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 36	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Hello Danny I'm Mike's son, he hasn't seen the photos yet but he thinks that they're of one of probably a few hundred pairs sold. The silver-coloured tweeter should be an STC 4001G, which was one of the cheapest decent units to make up a three-way speaker as suggested above. The other units would be KEF's B200 and T27 The back is white melamine, and the terminal posts still have the original red dot denoting polarity, so externally at least your pair seem to be original. I can't comment on the history of your pair without a bit more information Hope that helps

30th Jul 2019, 9:43 pm	#8
LNBAudio Triode Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Loughborough, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 36	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s It would probably help to explain "as suggested above"... The three-way speaker was an idea that "just sounded so right", rather than the thrown together comment And no, no offence was taken EDIT The silver tweeters were made by Standard Telephones and Cables Ltd (STC), which was bought in 1991 by Nortel if my googling is accurate Last edited by LNBAudio; 30th Jul 2019 at 10:06 pm.

31st Jul 2019, 12:00 am	#9
RojDW48 Nonode Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Bristol, UK. Posts: 2,074	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Yes - Nortel became STC - IIRC Coles took over manufacture of the STC super (but I don't know when - I believe they are still made). The STC super was my old dad's inspiration (he was an STC senior engineer during WW2) He reversed the operation of an HF microphone - I remember it well - he reckoned I might be able to hear some of the higher frequencies (at 8 yrs old). I could - it was quite painful!! __________________ '....don't go mistaking Paradise for that home across the road!' (Bob Dylan)

1st Aug 2019, 5:44 am	#12
LNBAudio Triode Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Loughborough, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 36	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Hello Danny If your speakers were made in 1975 (if I'm interpreting your post correctly) then they'd be quite late. They were developed well before that (but I'll need to check the date). In 1974 they were priced at £99 per pair inc VAT. The series I probably continued to 1976/1977, but again I'd need to check the dates with dad.

1st Aug 2019, 9:00 pm	#13
LNBAudio Triode Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Loughborough, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 36	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Hello Danny The dates are about right, and the STC units were bought in especially for dad's design. He thinks that the STC units were silver throughout production. The 3-way design lasted for maybe four years after VAT was introduced, so not such an interesting back story A better story came with the introduction of the series II when Hi-Fi Answers magazine reviewed five pairs of speakers in 1977 in the £200-£300 price range. The Lab20 was cheapest and the reviewer was disappointed in the bass. He rang dad who'd been working on the same problem; dad described some changes to the fibreglass damping and put a pack of wool damping in the post to the reviewer. The changes were made and "the cheapest - the humble LNB Paralab 20 Ser II fared extremely well in the face of stiff opposition". The reviewer placed it third out of the five

1st Aug 2019, 11:58 pm	#14
RojDW48 Nonode Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Bristol, UK. Posts: 2,074	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s People are often 'disappointed' with the bass on these kind of transmission line designs....because they don't 'boom'. Bass is deeper and more accurate - and that does not always please the average listener. __________________ '....don't go mistaking Paradise for that home across the road!' (Bob Dylan)

2nd Aug 2019, 7:53 am	#15
dannybgoode Diode Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 8	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Thanks again for the responses. I’m not disappointed at all with the bass to be fair. I think they have a really nice balance top to bottom. That said the way the integrate with my BK XLS200 sub is unreal - just helps to open everything up a bit. Could happily live without the sub but the difference is enough to keep it in the chain. Neat story about the MkII’s also. I’m surprised they only finished third. As far as vintage speakers I’m done for now - the MkI’s just do it for me .

2nd Aug 2019, 8:57 am	#16
Trevor Octode Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Stoke-on-Trent, Staffordshire, UK. Posts: 1,082	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Back in the day I worked in a small retail shop in Stoke on Trent we used to sell LNB and I me Mike on a few occasions had a cup of tea or two His speakers were very nice and to be fair sounded well! The main thing against them was always the size but you cannot pot a quart into a pint pot Very pleased to hear he is still with us Trev

2nd Aug 2019, 1:05 pm	#18
Beobloke Heptode Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Southampton, Hampshire, UK. Posts: 821	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Back in my speaker-designing days, I remeber being at a concert at the Festival Hall with my boss, who was the company's senior acoustic engineer. After....er....one or two shandies, we both jokingly concluded that the live and un-amplified double bass we were listening to didn't sound realistic at all....

3rd Aug 2019, 11:59 am	#19
LNBAudio Triode Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Loughborough, Leicestershire, UK. Posts: 36	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s Here's a cutaway of what could be a series II Lab 6, the damping has been removed for clarity... Attached Thumbnails

4th Aug 2019, 5:37 pm	#20
dannybgoode Diode Join Date: Jul 2019 Location: Sheffield, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 8	Re: LNB Para-Lab 20’s So here’s a thing. Yesterday I was in my local hifi shop and was there mainly to demo a new Naim streamer. However, the Lab 20’s have given me a taste for detail and realism so I thought I’d try a pair of Spendor D7’s with a serious view to buying them. You know what? For now at least I’m very happy with the 20’s. Sure the D7’s were better but they’re also £4k and if I’m honest whilst I’d love to have a pair at that price I’m sticking with the 20’s. They really are that brilliant.