Ace Record Player Valves - Page 2 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

leslie5555 · 16th Nov 2019, 1:51 pm

I didn't notice the first pot has no connections well done thanks Techman

Edward Huggins · 16th Nov 2019, 3:01 pm

Most players of ths period would have used an ECL82/UCL82 on a rather small chassis.
Is there something "home brew" about that amp - its generous chassis, its construction, the transformer sizes and those odd-choice valves?

paulsherwin · 16th Nov 2019, 3:27 pm

While I agree it's unusual, the EF37A in particular did stay in production for a long time - it was used in a lot of professional and military equipment and there was a healthy replacement market.

Heatercathodeshort · 16th Nov 2019, 3:46 pm

It may be that the original amplifier was of limited ability and the owner built this one to fit.
I can't think of any manufacturer that produced an octal based amplifier of this rather crude construction in the mid 50s let alone the 60s. Saying that if the amp is overhauled I expect it would be capable of a surprising performance!
Valve manufacturers produced valves that were 'current' for new receiver production and 'replacement' types for service replacements. They were not keen on manufacturers using obsolescent valves for new production unless current types were not available for the purpose.
I believe ACE were part of the Regentone group supplying mail order houses and furniture stores but were always up to date with their production. They would never have produced this 1940's style amplifier even if they had been given the valves for nothing! Hope you get it working. Simple circuit that will belt it out, all being well. John.

Edward Huggins · 16th Nov 2019, 5:19 pm

There is no doubt about it that all the other ACE Radiograms and Record players from the early 1960s all used the then current B9G miniature valves.

julie_m · 16th Nov 2019, 6:26 pm

I agree the most likely explanation for the anachronistic amplifier is that the player has been "upgraded" by a previous user. All new consumer equipment by the 1960s was using miniature 9- or 7-pin valves, but octal types would have been available cheaply as surplus stock to anyone looking to build an amplifier.

Home brew isn't necessarily bad, just give it a quick check for any real glaring errors but if the construction looks good, it probably is good (and whoever built it obviously liked it enough to keep it, otherwise they would long since have altered or scrapped it).

leslie5555 · 19th Nov 2019, 10:11 pm

After fitting a new mains lead and plug then powering it up via my lamp limiter all appears to be well with no horrible buzzing or hum and stroking the stylus tells me the BSR X5M cartridge is also working well.
My next job is to check the various components and see if anything needs replacing.
I have posted some more photos and it looks a bit messy to me.

Herald1360 · 19th Nov 2019, 10:19 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Edward Huggins

There is no doubt about it that all the other ACE Radiograms and Record players from the early 1960s all used the then current B9G miniature valves.

Not sure EF50s quite fit that description

ms660 · 19th Nov 2019, 10:36 pm

I'd change that Wima g1 coupling capacitor PDQ.

Lawrence.

leslie5555 · 19th Nov 2019, 10:44 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ms660

I'd change that Wima g1 coupling capacitor PDQ.

Lawrence.

There's another one you can just see it poking out from behind the mains switch in picture one .
Are they special caps?

ms660 · 20th Nov 2019, 10:45 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by leslie5555

Quote:

Originally Posted by ms660

I'd change that Wima g1 coupling capacitor PDQ.

Lawrence.

There's another one you can just see it poking out from behind the mains switch in picture one .
Are they special caps?

No, they're just known to leak like many other makes.

Lawrence.

GrimJosef · 20th Nov 2019, 11:56 am

Not all Wimas leak. Radford used the red cuboid ones (MKS series if I remember rightly) in their STA15 and STA25 amplifiers in the 1960s and, like the Mullard mustards, I haven't come across a bad one yet. Remarkably they're still on sale https://uk.farnell.com/wima/mks4g032...-pet/dp/148905 !

The small electrolytics in those amps however ...

Cheers,

GJ

AC/HL · 20th Nov 2019, 1:34 pm

Nicknamed "toffees" or "black bombs", they were yet another attempt at cheaply encapsulating paper capacitors, and suffered the same fate as all the others. Later ones are plastic dialectric and usually OK.

leslie5555 · 24th Nov 2019, 8:03 pm

To conclude after replacing 2 capacitors and 1 56k resistor, plus a full service on the deck.
HT is 250v although I don't know what it should be but it seems reasonable to me, plenty of volume so I reckon it's all good.
Thanks for all your replies.
Les.

Heatercathodeshort · 28th Nov 2019, 5:35 pm

The Wima chocolate toffee's used to snap short circuit in the Decca DM45 series TV receivers and the early Grundig tape recorders. They must be changed as suggested. J.
PS I see you now have it working. Great news.

Techman · 28th Nov 2019, 7:27 pm

I agree regarding these capacitors, I've also found them going dead short in old Grundigs. People go on about the Hunts, but generally in the same type of circuit positions the Hunts just tend to go leaky, whereas those other type in the Grundigs give no second chances!

Sideband · 28th Nov 2019, 9:24 pm

One of my first experiences with those old Wima's was when I first entered the trade in 1970. I had been made aware of them previously but not actually encountered one. It was a Grundig tape recorder I think a TK25 and the customer said there was no output, a hum and it seemed something was getting very hot. Opening up the recorder and applying mains it wasn't long before the output valve was glowing like a candle...I think it was something like an EL95. Initially I thought the output transformer was O/C primary but a resistance check proved otherwise. I then noticed a proliferation of these Wimas. I started checking a few then found one dead short......it was the coupling capacitor from the ECC83 anode to the grid of the EL95. Snipping one end proved the cap was duff. Fitting a replacement cured the glowing EL95 and even more amazing the valve still worked. The workshop manager/chief engineer advised changing it all the same since it would have been severely overrun and would probably fail sooner rather than later.

Herald1360 · 29th Nov 2019, 12:11 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sideband

The workshop manager/chief engineer advised changing it all the same since it would have been severely overrun and would probably fail sooner rather than later.

And of course the extra return from a valve replacement as well as a few capacitors couldn't possibly have figured in the equation.....

leslie5555 · 30th Nov 2019, 5:05 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Techman

The other pot on your amp has an on/off switch which is not being used, so indicates that this pot has been replaced at some time, or that the amplifier is in fact made up from random parts after all.

The 'other' pot is part of the circuit and is the volume control, the on off switch also adjusts the tone and the third one is for the base.

16th Nov 2019, 1:51 pm	#21
leslie5555 Heptode Join Date: May 2015 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Posts: 692	Re: Ace Record Player Valves I didn't notice the first pot has no connections well done thanks Techman

16th Nov 2019, 3:01 pm	#22
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,328	Re: Ace Record Player Valves Most players of ths period would have used an ECL82/UCL82 on a rather small chassis. Is there something "home brew" about that amp - its generous chassis, its construction, the transformer sizes and those odd-choice valves? __________________ Edward.

16th Nov 2019, 3:27 pm	#23
paulsherwin Moderator Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 27,947	Re: Ace Record Player Valves While I agree it's unusual, the EF37A in particular did stay in production for a long time - it was used in a lot of professional and military equipment and there was a healthy replacement market.

16th Nov 2019, 3:46 pm	#24
Heatercathodeshort Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING. Posts: 9,147	Re: Ace Record Player Valves It may be that the original amplifier was of limited ability and the owner built this one to fit. I can't think of any manufacturer that produced an octal based amplifier of this rather crude construction in the mid 50s let alone the 60s. Saying that if the amp is overhauled I expect it would be capable of a surprising performance! Valve manufacturers produced valves that were 'current' for new receiver production and 'replacement' types for service replacements. They were not keen on manufacturers using obsolescent valves for new production unless current types were not available for the purpose. I believe ACE were part of the Regentone group supplying mail order houses and furniture stores but were always up to date with their production. They would never have produced this 1940's style amplifier even if they had been given the valves for nothing! Hope you get it working. Simple circuit that will belt it out, all being well. John.

16th Nov 2019, 5:19 pm	#25
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,328	Re: Ace Record Player Valves There is no doubt about it that all the other ACE Radiograms and Record players from the early 1960s all used the then current B9G miniature valves. __________________ Edward.

16th Nov 2019, 6:26 pm	#26
julie_m Dekatron Join Date: May 2008 Location: Derby, UK. Posts: 7,735	Re: Ace Record Player Valves I agree the most likely explanation for the anachronistic amplifier is that the player has been "upgraded" by a previous user. All new consumer equipment by the 1960s was using miniature 9- or 7-pin valves, but octal types would have been available cheaply as surplus stock to anyone looking to build an amplifier. Home brew isn't necessarily bad, just give it a quick check for any real glaring errors but if the construction looks good, it probably is good (and whoever built it obviously liked it enough to keep it, otherwise they would long since have altered or scrapped it). __________________ If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.

19th Nov 2019, 10:11 pm	#27
leslie5555 Heptode Join Date: May 2015 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Posts: 692	Re: Ace Record Player Valves After fitting a new mains lead and plug then powering it up via my lamp limiter all appears to be well with no horrible buzzing or hum and stroking the stylus tells me the BSR X5M cartridge is also working well. My next job is to check the various components and see if anything needs replacing. I have posted some more photos and it looks a bit messy to me. Attached Thumbnails

19th Nov 2019, 10:36 pm	#29
ms660 Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Cornwall, UK. Posts: 13,454	Re: Ace Record Player Valves I'd change that Wima g1 coupling capacitor PDQ. Lawrence.

20th Nov 2019, 11:56 am	#32
GrimJosef Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Oxfordshire, UK. Posts: 4,311	Re: Ace Record Player Valves Not all Wimas leak. Radford used the red cuboid ones (MKS series if I remember rightly) in their STA15 and STA25 amplifiers in the 1960s and, like the Mullard mustards, I haven't come across a bad one yet. Remarkably they're still on sale https://uk.farnell.com/wima/mks4g032...-pet/dp/148905 ! The small electrolytics in those amps however ... Cheers, GJ __________________ http://www.ampregen.com

20th Nov 2019, 1:34 pm	#33
AC/HL Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 9,642	Re: Ace Record Player Valves Nicknamed "toffees" or "black bombs", they were yet another attempt at cheaply encapsulating paper capacitors, and suffered the same fate as all the others. Later ones are plastic dialectric and usually OK.

24th Nov 2019, 8:03 pm	#34
leslie5555 Heptode Join Date: May 2015 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Posts: 692	Re: Ace Record Player Valves To conclude after replacing 2 capacitors and 1 56k resistor, plus a full service on the deck. HT is 250v although I don't know what it should be but it seems reasonable to me, plenty of volume so I reckon it's all good. Thanks for all your replies. Les.

28th Nov 2019, 5:35 pm	#35
Heatercathodeshort Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Warnham, West Sussex. 10 miles south of DORKING. Posts: 9,147	Re: Ace Record Player Valves The Wima chocolate toffee's used to snap short circuit in the Decca DM45 series TV receivers and the early Grundig tape recorders. They must be changed as suggested. J. PS I see you now have it working. Great news.

28th Nov 2019, 7:27 pm	#36
Techman Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 5,000	Re: Ace Record Player Valves I agree regarding these capacitors, I've also found them going dead short in old Grundigs. People go on about the Hunts, but generally in the same type of circuit positions the Hunts just tend to go leaky, whereas those other type in the Grundigs give no second chances!

28th Nov 2019, 9:24 pm	#37
Sideband Dekatron Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Croydon, Surrey, UK. Posts: 7,572	Re: Ace Record Player Valves One of my first experiences with those old Wima's was when I first entered the trade in 1970. I had been made aware of them previously but not actually encountered one. It was a Grundig tape recorder I think a TK25 and the customer said there was no output, a hum and it seemed something was getting very hot. Opening up the recorder and applying mains it wasn't long before the output valve was glowing like a candle...I think it was something like an EL95. Initially I thought the output transformer was O/C primary but a resistance check proved otherwise. I then noticed a proliferation of these Wimas. I started checking a few then found one dead short......it was the coupling capacitor from the ECC83 anode to the grid of the EL95. Snipping one end proved the cap was duff. Fitting a replacement cured the glowing EL95 and even more amazing the valve still worked. The workshop manager/chief engineer advised changing it all the same since it would have been severely overrun and would probably fail sooner rather than later. __________________ There are lots of brilliant keyboard players and then there is Rick Wakeman.....