UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > General Vintage Technology > Components and Circuits

Notices

Components and Circuits For discussions about component types, alternatives and availability, circuit configurations and modifications etc. Discussions here should be of a general nature and not about specific sets.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 27th Sep 2017, 10:50 pm   #1
Andrewausfa
Octode
 
Andrewausfa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: St Ives, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Posts: 1,180
Default European Black/Blue Mains Lead

I've just bought a SABA set with the old European black/blue two core mains lead.

Which colour was meant to be the 'Live' phase please? The set is wired Blue to the 'Live' and to the On/Off switch, Black to 'Neutral' and the onboard fuse.

A simple question but on a quick search earlier today I saw two different answers from respected members, hence my confusion. Not that it matters which way around on this particular transistor set but it would be nice if someone has a definitive answer, if there is one.

Thanks - Andrew
__________________
Invisible airwaves crackle with life. Or they should do.
BVWS Member
Andrewausfa is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2017, 11:19 pm   #2
winston_1
Hexode
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 497
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

I believe blue was neutral, black was live.
winston_1 is offline  
Old 27th Sep 2017, 11:57 pm   #3
Refugee
Dekatron
 
Refugee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Worksop, Nottinghamshire, UK.
Posts: 5,549
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

Blue is more likely to be neutral as it is here in the UK. The United states also have black as live. The fusing is another clue.
Old UK wiring was an exception but only with A red live.

Last edited by Refugee; 27th Sep 2017 at 11:58 pm. Reason: clarity improvement
Refugee is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 12:22 am   #4
Mr Moose
Octode
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, UK.
Posts: 1,043
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

Hello,
I found the table below on the internet and whilst it applies to fixed wiring it would appear that in much of Europe blue was neutral and black and or brown the live.
(Under current European rules blue is neutral and brown, black and grey are the three live phase colours)
Yours, Richard
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Old_fixed_cables_colors_cenelec.jpg
Views:	201
Size:	64.4 KB
ID:	150015  
Mr Moose is online now  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 6:40 am   #5
mole42uk
Nonode
 
mole42uk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Resolfen, Wales; and Bristol, England
Posts: 2,588
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

That table is well out of date, Richard. The phase colours are no longer legal in the UK for instance. As I recall, in France blue is N, PE is G or G/Y, any other colour is L
__________________
Richard

Index:
recursive loop: see recursive loop
mole42uk is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 8:17 am   #6
Radio Wrangler
Moderator
 
Radio Wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,800
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

The table does say OLD colours...

But it's odd that for the UK, red and black power conductors are teamed with yellow/green striped earth. Surely all-green earth was contemporary?

David
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done
Radio Wrangler is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 8:30 am   #7
G6Tanuki
Dekatron
 
G6Tanuki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 13,953
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

I''ve got a cable here on a piece of kit colour-coded red yellow black. Much confusion !

Given that your radio was probably designed to work with and was originally supplied with a "Europlug" or the Europlug's locale-defined predecessor - both of which were non-polarised - I wouldn't worry too much about the issue when fitting a modern polarised UK plug.
G6Tanuki is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 9:03 am   #8
Mr Moose
Octode
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Gloucestershire, UK.
Posts: 1,043
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

Hello,
The original UK earth colour was green with red and black for live and neutral, hovever there was a period before harmonization when the earth colour was changed to green/yellow whilst retaining red and black for live and neutral.
Yours, Richard
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	wikipedia-wiring-colours.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	24.4 KB
ID:	150016  
Mr Moose is online now  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 9:37 am   #9
Peter.N.
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Charmouth, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 3,601
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

Which was a boon to me as I couldn't tell the difference between the red and green wires.

Peter
Peter.N. is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 9:44 am   #10
Radio Wrangler
Moderator
 
Radio Wrangler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,800
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

Ah!, thanks. I'd thought they all changed at once.

david
__________________
Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done
Radio Wrangler is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 7:03 pm   #11
Jon_G4MDC
Nonode
 
Jon_G4MDC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,013
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

It's a misery looking at a house wired in Black & Blue when the the supply is 115V either side of Ground. Eventual solution was a long wire with protection resistor back to the Blue side of the fuse box.
Now you can go to each room (since star burst wiring) and find the swaps.

That one is black but coloured blue (hot!), that one is blue but coloured black(cold).


Oh yes and another thing. It has a bare copper earth wire - don't mind that. Then some types wrap over the conductors with aluminium foil.
Thinking about that. So long as grounded - a good shield for mains borne Crud perhaps. Otherwise dangerous could touch anything.
It means you will not find a cable alive or dead with a HI-Z detector unless you open a socket - all being well. You will find out all right if all is not well.

Check first. <oh yes and just remembered - had your finger get a paper cut? That foil is guillotine standard. Put
Blood bank on standby.>

Last edited by Jon_G4MDC; 28th Sep 2017 at 7:21 pm.
Jon_G4MDC is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 7:37 pm   #12
hannahs radios
Hexode
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Weymouth, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 422
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

I agree its unlikely to matter which way round you wire it assuming its got a mains transformer and is not AD/DC technique. I do wonder why they put the fuse and switch in different poles just seem crazy to me. Incidentally I have a Racal frequency counter with red/blue/green colour code, red is live blue neutral and green earth, confirmed by opening it up to see what went where.
hannahs radios is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 8:13 pm   #13
Bookman
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Taunton, Somerset, UK.
Posts: 318
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

The answer is really in the question. Here the original request referred to a colour arrangement but as a single phase supply. We forget that distribution is undertaken using a 3 phase supply and do we really think that it would be blue for L1, L2 & L3?
The fuse/fuse link as stated earlier is usually the give away.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	VRF.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	79.1 KB
ID:	150039  
Bookman is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 8:39 pm   #14
Boater Sam
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines.
Posts: 3,897
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

The last harmonisation to UK was 3 phases, black, brown, grey, Earth is green/yellow, neutral is blue.
This ties in with the German lead you have, black live which puts the fuse in the live, blue neutral which puts the switch in the neutral as was common in UK sets for some strange reason.
If that lead had an earth, it would probably have been red!
Which to some extent explains why there was harmonisation.
USA use black as live too. But white neutral. Very obviously different colours if you accept that black and white are colours ( which they really are not! )
Boater Sam is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 9:16 pm   #15
Andrewausfa
Octode
 
Andrewausfa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: St Ives, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Posts: 1,180
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

My assumption before I made the initial search on here was Black 'Live'. However, that wasn't the way the mains plug was wired and it was that that started me searching on here and finding two different answers.

All rather a moot point I know for this transformer equipped sets operation but I thought it interesting to ask what the correct way around it was meant to be.

Thanks for all the interesting responses.

Andrew
__________________
Invisible airwaves crackle with life. Or they should do.
BVWS Member
Andrewausfa is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 9:45 pm   #16
julie_m
Dekatron
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Derby, UK.
Posts: 7,735
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

I've seem modern appliances with a fuse in one pole and a switch in the other. It looks a bit ugly if you were brought up on the British system, but it saves a whole terminal and a few centimetres of precious wire. And at least when it's used with a reversible plug, you can be sure that one of them is in the live .....
__________________
If I have seen further than others, it is because I was standing on a pile of failed experiments.
julie_m is offline  
Old 28th Sep 2017, 10:09 pm   #17
vidjoman
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: East Sussex, UK.
Posts: 3,315
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

I believe that on many radios and record players the switch was often placed in the neutral connection to reduce the possibility of hum being induced into the volume control which usually had the switch attached. Some sets had the switch on the tone control but the switch was usually in the live connection in that case as the tone control often didn't cause as much hum.

On sets with a 2 core mains lead and fitted with a 2 pin plug if was sometimes beneficial to try the plug both ways round to see which had the lower hum level.
vidjoman is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2017, 8:55 am   #18
Craig Sawyers
Dekatron
 
Craig Sawyers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 4,941
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

Quote:
Originally Posted by hannahs radios View Post
I agree its unlikely to matter which way round you wire it assuming its got a mains transformer
Depends on the transformer. If it has the secondary wound over the primary (ie it is not a split-bobbin EI) it does matter which way the primary is connected. This is because of interwinding capacitance, which may be order nanofarads. If the live is connected to the end of the winding next to the secondary, hum current can be injected into the secondary and find its way into the audio. Since neutral is roughly at ground potential that ought to be closest to the secondaries.

As vidjoman indicates - primary one way round has lower hum.
Craig Sawyers is online now  
Old 29th Sep 2017, 8:59 am   #19
Lucien Nunes
Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 2,508
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

In Europe, a black/blue or black/grey flex would invariably have used the black as live (now officially called line). However, I have seen appliances that were commercially imported for sale in the UK, before the prohibition on selling anything but the 'correct' current UK colours, where the flex has been rewired internally to make it more nearly match UK practice. For example, a 1960s German-made slide projector from a respected manufacturer, with the then current black/grey/red flex, which would have been dangerous had the red earth wire been connected to the live pin of a plug. It has been reconnected to make red live, black neutral and according to the instructions the grey earth had a piece of green sleeving fitted. When I received it, the sleeving was gone, so the temptation was to wire it as per German practice until I checked, and the booklet confirmed the internal reconnection I found.

As mentioned above, historically there was much less reliance on a particular supply polarity outside the UK. Some localities derived single-phase supplies from delta 3-phase, making both legs were live wrt. earth, where there is no concept of polarity at all.
Lucien Nunes is offline  
Old 29th Sep 2017, 9:26 am   #20
cmjones01
Nonode
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Warsaw, Poland and Cambridge, UK
Posts: 2,669
Default Re: European Black/Blue Mains Lead

Yes, the assumption that live and neutral can reliably be distinguished, like in the UK, is very much the exception. In much of the rest of the world, it's just pot luck how the sockets are wired - even when they're 3-pin ones which can only fit one way round. This applies today as much as ever.

Chris
__________________
What's going on in the workshop? http://martin-jones.com/
cmjones01 is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:29 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.