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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 12th Jul 2019, 10:56 pm   #1
Woodfordman
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Default NEWBIE - bleed through?

I have a number of tapes recorded in the late 1960's that I haven't listed too since then. All recorded on a Grundig reel to reel.

Intrigue got the better of me and I purchased a Grundig TK121 in anticipation of reliving the past. This I am pretty sure is the same recorder that I used in the 60's. Alas the recordings are very poor and I can hear additional recordings that seem to be in reverse at the same time.

A bit of research suggest that this is "bleed through" or "print through" I think. Does this sound right and if so is there anything that can be done to recover the recordings?

Any help would be appreciated.

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Old 12th Jul 2019, 11:08 pm   #2
paulsherwin
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

No, this is not print through. Print through results in pre or post echo of loud sounds. It's much more likely that you are trying to play a 4 track recording on a 2 track machine.
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Old 12th Jul 2019, 11:15 pm   #3
Woodfordman
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

Thanks Paul. I can't be certain but I thought that the recorder I had bought is the same model as the one I originally used for the recordings that is the Grundig TK121. Would you know if that is a 4 or 2 track recorder?
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Old 12th Jul 2019, 11:33 pm   #4
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

To expand on Paul's point which is almost certainly correct, the TK121 is a 2-track mono machine. This means it plays or records on half the width of the tape for each track. Turning the tape over records or plays the other track.

A 4-track machine records on 1/4 width of the tape for each track, but adjacent tracks run in opposite directions. So if you use the TK121 to play a recording made on a 4-track machine, regardless of whether it is mono or stereo, if all tracks have been used you will unavoidably play one track forward and another in reverse simultaneously. If one of the two adjacent tracks happens to be blank, you will hear forwards or reverse audio only, but the quality will be poor because less than half of the head is reading signal.

I wonder whether the tapes were actually recorded on a TK141, which is the almost-identical-looking 4-track equivalent machine?

Last edited by Lucien Nunes; 13th Jul 2019 at 12:00 am. Reason: typo
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Old 12th Jul 2019, 11:56 pm   #5
Woodfordman
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

Thanks for your help on this. I believe that I am wrong and that I need a four track tape recorder. The 141 certainly looks almost the same.
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Old 12th Jul 2019, 11:58 pm   #6
paulsherwin
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

TK141: http://www.radiomuseum.co.uk/gtk141.html

If it helps to jog your memory, 4 track recorders have a fairly prominent switch usually marked '1-2' and '3-4'. This selects which of the two available tracks in each tape direction to use. It appears to be a push button on the TK141.

You don't need exactly the same model of recorder used to make the recordings. Any 4 track machine with the right tape speed can be used. (Actually, you can even work around a different tape speed, but let's not get into that at this stage).
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 6:31 am   #7
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

If I remember correctly from my tape recorder days (a long time ago), print-through can occur on some tapes that have been fully wound for many years and stored. Some tapes are worse than others. However assuming that the tapes are played on a compatible machine, you will only notice print-through at fairly high volume levels and generally only on a blank section, typically the gap between one music track and the next. If you have the volume on the recorder set fairly high during this blank period, you might hear a very low-level noise that might be discernible as backwards music or speech. It could also be very slight bleed from another adjacent track if the head on the playback machine is not quite aligned the same as the original machine. This sort of 'bleed over' or 'bleed through' is generally of a higher level than print-through.

If you are hearing both the forward track and reverse track at more or less the same volume, then it is, as already stated, the fact that you are using a two-track machine to play back a four-track tape.

Others may be able to explain it better than me!
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 9:15 am   #8
Woodfordman
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

Paul,

I googled the TK141 to see if I could find a manual for it and go this site https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_li...g/tk-141.shtml which seems to suggest that this is a 2 track recorder although it does have the buttons you refer to.

Any further comments you may have would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 10:32 am   #9
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

That's an error on the hifiengine site. The actual Grundig manual is correct.
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 11:26 am   #10
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodfordman View Post
Alas the recordings are very poor and I can hear additional recordings that seem to be in reverse at the same time.

Aside from the additional reversed recordings you're hearing, it may be the recordings sound poor because the machine you now have is not doing them justice. Generally speaking, old tape recordings stored for even many decades don't deteriorate. The trick is to play them at their best on a machine that's operating at a high standard. Often that's a more recent machine.
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 1:12 pm   #11
paulsherwin
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

They could also be sounding poor because they are poor. Machines of this class could make reasonably good quality recordings, but often that's not how they were used. It was a standard technique to record TV sound by putting the microphone next to the TV speaker, to give just one example. The memory plays tricks after all this time, and what you remember from 1970 may sound very different if you listen to it today.
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Old 13th Jul 2019, 4:28 pm   #12
TIMTAPE
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

Yes Paul they could actually be poor recordings. All the more reason to play them back optimally so they don't sound any poorer than they perhaps already are.

Last edited by TIMTAPE; 13th Jul 2019 at 4:41 pm.
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Old 14th Jul 2019, 5:41 am   #13
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

I'd say start by getting a 4-track recorder that can play back the tapes properly. It's hard listening to two tracks at once of which one is reversed, and trying to ascertain the audio quality.
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 3:55 pm   #14
Woodfordman
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

Anyone know where I can get a four track recorder from?
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Old 19th Jul 2019, 8:20 pm   #15
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

Try a post here: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...splay.php?f=28
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Old 24th Jul 2019, 2:36 pm   #16
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Default Re: NEWBIE - bleed through?

Interesting. Must have a Go at some 1963 tapes and report now unplayed for 2 years
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