I am willing to bet this is not mould. - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

YC-156 · 12th Mar 2006, 7:07 pm

Today, while working on a VHF valve tuner, something unexpected caught my eye. Seems it is not only AF11x based equipment, which can be affected by tin whiskers. In another set I saw something similar on a tin plated part of the chassis, but not to this extent. I had better make sure I mow the lawn before putting this one back together.

Best regards

Frank N.

http://www.warpspace.com/glowbugs/oz...iskers1_sm.jpg
Enlarge photo.

http://www.warpspace.com/glowbugs/oz...iskers2_sm.jpg
Enlarge photo.

http://www.warpspace.com/glowbugs/oz...iskers3_sm.jpg
Enlarge photo.

http://www.warpspace.com/glowbugs/oz...iskers4_sm.jpg
Enlarge photo.

ukcol · 12th Mar 2006, 8:12 pm

That's absolutely amazing Frank. It makes me wonder if the process that produces these whiskers is organic in any way. Have you cleaned the tuner up yet? I bet there would be a few people in the scientific community who would love to examine your find.

YC-156 · 12th Mar 2006, 8:23 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ukcol

Have you cleaned the tuner up yet? I bet there would be a few people in the scientific community who would love to examine your find.

No, the innards of the tuner are still very much as found. I may accidentally have disturbed a few of the threads since the photos were made, but that is about the extent of it.

I would have assumed NASAs scientists or others like them have had plenty of opportunity to study surfaces like these before, but maybe I am wrong about that. My thinking is that open plated structures like these cannot be that rare.

Frank N.

radiogammon · 12th Mar 2006, 9:51 pm

Great photos, Frank. I have seen similar things to this before on the back surface of a CRT due to electrostatic attraction or when a metal object becomes magnetised and attracts every strand of metal in the vicinity. Is this a possibility? Could the TV have been used in a workshop, for example?

Steve_P · 12th Mar 2006, 10:57 pm

I'd like to know more about this too. Make, Model, Etc and where it was used, and how long it stayed idle for.

Cheers,

Steve P.

YC-156 · 12th Mar 2006, 11:16 pm

John, Steve,

Maybe I have expressed myself inaccurately. This is not from a TV, it is the VHF FM front end from this radio, also featured in this thread. The tuner is situated below the chassis, and it is visible in the last photo in the second thread linked.

The radio is a 1959/1960 Grundig 5017, and I have no way of knowing for how long it has been sitting idle, I bought it on eBay Germany some time ago. What I do know however, is that it is unbelieveably filthy from a combination of dust and nicotine. It was while I was in the process of *completely* disassembling the radio that I discovered these filaments of unknown composition and origin. The VHF tuner is located away from the large transformers, plus being below the iron chassis, so the magnetic field should be negligible at its location. The electric field inside the unit is mostly RF and, being a receiver, not of significant magnitude one should think. Shield case is aluminium.

How the filaments could form in a contaminated environment like this is beyond me.

Best regards

Frank N.

Nickthedentist · 12th Mar 2006, 11:27 pm

Are the whiskers definitely non-ferrous, Frank? Perhaps you could carefully remove one with tweezers and take it near a magnet to check?

They're certainly very impressive, and don't look at all like the "iron filing whiskers" you sometimes see on speaker magnets when someone's been using wire wool in the vicinity.

Nick.

YC-156 · 12th Mar 2006, 11:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickthedentist

Are the whiskers definitely non-ferrous, Frank? Perhaps you could carefully remove one with tweezers and take it near a magnet to check?

No idea, Nick

At this point I'd rather leave everything well alone until I'm sure the filaments and their undisturbed surroundings are not of value to anyone from a scientific point of view.

Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nickthedentist

They're certainly very impressive, and don't look at all like the "iron filing whiskers" you sometimes see on speaker magnets when someone's been using wire wool in the vicinity.

They are not similar to chains of magnetic iron filings. I can see more details than is visible in the photos, and they appear to be single crystals or threads of some reflective material with a very regular appearence. I have a feeling I could grab one with tweezers and snap it in half. Like tiny glass crystals.

Best regards

Frank N.

YC-156 · 13th Mar 2006, 8:52 am

I have just sent a short mail to the NASA team regarding these whiskers. Let us hope they have time to comment.

Frank N.

jjl · 13th Mar 2006, 10:51 am

Frank

I have a very similar radio to your Gundig 5017, mine is a 5080. When I restored my set about 5 years ago, the chassis members around the "equaliser" pots underneath and perpendicular to the deck had similar whiskers on them. I managed to remove the whiskers by rubbing with a cloth and then vacuuming the debris out of the chassis. These chassis members have a dull grey plating, in contrast to the golden colour of the main chassis deck.
My set too had lived with a heavy smoker though I'm not sure that the smoke could contribute to this effect. I suppose there must be some property of the steel and / or the plating used by Grundig that causes these whiskers.

John

stephanie · 15th Mar 2006, 6:34 pm

When I cleaned out my Roberts RM-33, there were little whiskers like that on the metal "chassis" bracket that holds the PC board inside the csae.

I wiped it down with a tissue moistened in lighter fluid, if I recall correctly.

It looked more like peach-fuzz.

YC-156 · 18th Mar 2006, 7:51 am

Stephanie,

I just shipped the tuner off to Pennsylvania for some vacuum therapy.

I was wondering if I should arrange for it to stop over in NYC on its way back? Perhaps you have time to show it some of the sights around town, share a few

with it and generally make it feel welcome 'over there' in the big, bad US of A.

Frank N.

(The NASA Goddard team would like to have a closer look, and perhaps make a little anecdote for their web pages regarding these whiskers.)

Alan_Douglas · 28th Mar 2006, 3:54 am

I saw the same whiskers in several calibration pots in an ancient Hewlett-Packard scope. They had shorted the wiper to ground in one pot. I found the same NASA web site describing the phenomenon, but it certainly surprised me.

Steve_Johnson · 28th Mar 2006, 11:12 am

My guess would be crystal growths from the metal salts in the plating.

Steve J

Paul Stenning · 28th Mar 2006, 5:47 pm

See the NASA website before speculating. They have been investigating for years.....

Sideband · 31st Mar 2006, 7:58 pm

Just as a matter of interest, I've just taken the chassis out of a 1933 Philips 274A prior to cleaning and restoring. The tuning gang is enclosed in metal screening cans and....there are tin whiskers growing from them. I've taken some pics as best I can but cannot get in very close with my rather basic camera. I only hope they are not growing INSIDE as well as I did not intend to dismantle the tuning gear!!

You can just see them in these photo's....looks more like stubble!!

Rich

Sideband · 18th Apr 2006, 10:08 pm

Just had an PM from NASA regarding these whiskers....they want samples!

Rich.

bills · 5th May 2006, 1:54 am

Interesting Thread.
link to nasa web site http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/
bill

12th Mar 2006, 7:07 pm	#1
YC-156 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Aarhus, Denmark Posts: 281	I am willing to bet this is not mould. Today, while working on a VHF valve tuner, something unexpected caught my eye. Seems it is not only AF11x based equipment, which can be affected by tin whiskers. In another set I saw something similar on a tin plated part of the chassis, but not to this extent. I had better make sure I mow the lawn before putting this one back together. Best regards Frank N. http://www.warpspace.com/glowbugs/oz...iskers1_sm.jpg Enlarge photo. http://www.warpspace.com/glowbugs/oz...iskers2_sm.jpg Enlarge photo. http://www.warpspace.com/glowbugs/oz...iskers3_sm.jpg Enlarge photo. http://www.warpspace.com/glowbugs/oz...iskers4_sm.jpg Enlarge photo.

12th Mar 2006, 8:12 pm	#2
ukcol Rest in Peace Join Date: May 2003 Location: Harlaxton, Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 3,944	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. That's absolutely amazing Frank. It makes me wonder if the process that produces these whiskers is organic in any way. Have you cleaned the tuner up yet? I bet there would be a few people in the scientific community who would love to examine your find.

12th Mar 2006, 9:51 pm	#4
radiogammon Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: County Down, Northern Ireland, UK. Posts: 275	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. Great photos, Frank. I have seen similar things to this before on the back surface of a CRT due to electrostatic attraction or when a metal object becomes magnetised and attracts every strand of metal in the vicinity. Is this a possibility? Could the TV have been used in a workshop, for example?

12th Mar 2006, 10:57 pm	#5
Steve_P Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 6,644	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. I'd like to know more about this too. Make, Model, Etc and where it was used, and how long it stayed idle for. Cheers, Steve P. __________________ If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?

12th Mar 2006, 11:16 pm	#6
YC-156 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Aarhus, Denmark Posts: 281	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. John, Steve, Maybe I have expressed myself inaccurately. This is not from a TV, it is the VHF FM front end from this radio, also featured in this thread. The tuner is situated below the chassis, and it is visible in the last photo in the second thread linked. The radio is a 1959/1960 Grundig 5017, and I have no way of knowing for how long it has been sitting idle, I bought it on eBay Germany some time ago. What I do know however, is that it is unbelieveably filthy from a combination of dust and nicotine. It was while I was in the process of completely disassembling the radio that I discovered these filaments of unknown composition and origin. The VHF tuner is located away from the large transformers, plus being below the iron chassis, so the magnetic field should be negligible at its location. The electric field inside the unit is mostly RF and, being a receiver, not of significant magnitude one should think. Shield case is aluminium. How the filaments could form in a contaminated environment like this is beyond me. Best regards Frank N.

12th Mar 2006, 11:27 pm	#7
Nickthedentist Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oxford, UK. Posts: 17,864	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. Are the whiskers definitely non-ferrous, Frank? Perhaps you could carefully remove one with tweezers and take it near a magnet to check? They're certainly very impressive, and don't look at all like the "iron filing whiskers" you sometimes see on speaker magnets when someone's been using wire wool in the vicinity. Nick.

13th Mar 2006, 8:52 am	#9
YC-156 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Aarhus, Denmark Posts: 281	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. I have just sent a short mail to the NASA team regarding these whiskers. Let us hope they have time to comment. Frank N.

13th Mar 2006, 10:51 am	#10
jjl Octode Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Ware, Herts. UK. Posts: 1,082	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. Frank I have a very similar radio to your Gundig 5017, mine is a 5080. When I restored my set about 5 years ago, the chassis members around the "equaliser" pots underneath and perpendicular to the deck had similar whiskers on them. I managed to remove the whiskers by rubbing with a cloth and then vacuuming the debris out of the chassis. These chassis members have a dull grey plating, in contrast to the golden colour of the main chassis deck. My set too had lived with a heavy smoker though I'm not sure that the smoke could contribute to this effect. I suppose there must be some property of the steel and / or the plating used by Grundig that causes these whiskers. John

15th Mar 2006, 6:34 pm	#11
stephanie Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: New Bern, North Carolina, USA Posts: 346	whiskas When I cleaned out my Roberts RM-33, there were little whiskers like that on the metal "chassis" bracket that holds the PC board inside the csae. I wiped it down with a tissue moistened in lighter fluid, if I recall correctly. It looked more like peach-fuzz.

18th Mar 2006, 7:51 am	#12
YC-156 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Aarhus, Denmark Posts: 281	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. Stephanie, I just shipped the tuner off to Pennsylvania for some vacuum therapy. I was wondering if I should arrange for it to stop over in NYC on its way back? Perhaps you have time to show it some of the sights around town, share a few with it and generally make it feel welcome 'over there' in the big, bad US of A. Frank N. (The NASA Goddard team would like to have a closer look, and perhaps make a little anecdote for their web pages regarding these whiskers.)

28th Mar 2006, 3:54 am	#13
Alan_Douglas Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Cape Cod, Massachusetts Posts: 59	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. I saw the same whiskers in several calibration pots in an ancient Hewlett-Packard scope. They had shorted the wiper to ground in one pot. I found the same NASA web site describing the phenomenon, but it certainly surprised me.

28th Mar 2006, 11:12 am	#14
Steve_Johnson Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Fareham, Hants Posts: 188	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. My guess would be crystal growths from the metal salts in the plating. Steve J

28th Mar 2006, 5:47 pm	#15
Paul Stenning Administrator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Cardiff Posts: 9,073	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. See the NASA website before speculating. They have been investigating for years..... __________________ Paul Stenning Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster

31st Mar 2006, 7:58 pm	#16
Sideband Dekatron Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Croydon, Surrey, UK. Posts: 7,578	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. Just as a matter of interest, I've just taken the chassis out of a 1933 Philips 274A prior to cleaning and restoring. The tuning gang is enclosed in metal screening cans and....there are tin whiskers growing from them. I've taken some pics as best I can but cannot get in very close with my rather basic camera. I only hope they are not growing INSIDE as well as I did not intend to dismantle the tuning gear!! You can just see them in these photo's....looks more like stubble!! Rich Attached Thumbnails __________________ There are lots of brilliant keyboard players and then there is Rick Wakeman.....

18th Apr 2006, 10:08 pm	#17
Sideband Dekatron Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Croydon, Surrey, UK. Posts: 7,578	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. Just had an PM from NASA regarding these whiskers....they want samples! Rich. __________________ There are lots of brilliant keyboard players and then there is Rick Wakeman.....

5th May 2006, 1:54 am	#18
bills Retired Dormant Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: California USA Posts: 2	Re: I am willing to bet this is not mould. Interesting Thread. link to nasa web site http://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/ bill