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Components and Circuits For discussions about component types, alternatives and availability, circuit configurations and modifications etc. Discussions here should be of a general nature and not about specific sets. |
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7th Nov 2019, 6:49 pm | #1 |
Heptode
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 951
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Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
I appreciate this is pretty esoteric stuff, but just for fun, I fancy building a radio-goniometer (for those not familiar with the word, its a set of orthogonally fixed coils, which connect to antennas, and an internal movable pick-up coil, used for direction finding)
Now, I can find enough photos or sketches to see how to build one physically, but what I cant seem to find is any info on suitable numbers of turns for the coils, and hence the inductance values. I have seen just one mention of around 40uH. I intend to use it for HF DF, with either loops or a set of four verticals, so im looking for values that would give 'decent' results (i.e. some results!) between say 160m and 20m, or somewhere sensible inbetween, Anyone any suggestions? Martin
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8th Nov 2019, 2:01 am | #2 |
Nonode
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Tintinara, South Australia, Australia
Posts: 2,343
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
Most of the more practical texts I can find are from the 1920's - 30's, but no actual values in some that I browsed.
This text seems to cover various different designs (from 1922) but i have run out of time to go through it a bit more thoroughly: https://archive.org/details/Directio...dingByWireless |
8th Nov 2019, 6:03 am | #3 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
Any value will do as far as getting directional sensing goes.
If you don't have enough inductance, it will be a difficult load on whatever is driving it. If you go for too much inductance you'll run into problems with self resonant frequency due to capacitance between the turns. These are exactly the same issues as with designing a simple transformer. 40uH is going to have a reactance of 452 Ohms at 1.8MHz. If you have amplifiers between the two antennae and the goniometer primary coils, this is almost ten times 50 Ohms. In transformer terms it sets the magnetising current and this factor at the LF end is plenty. So the next question is whether you can make a 40uH winding of the physical size required by your mechanism and get the self resonant frequency to be well above your upper frequency goal of 30MHz? So 40uH is a reasonable figure if the goniometer is driven from 50 Ohm-ish amplifiers or directly from 50 Ohm-ish antennae. Some (Classic Tektronix) colour TV test equipment had goniometer transformers to allow a front panel knob to rotate the phase of a subcarrier frequency signal through a full 360 degrees. The stator coils were driven with a 90 degree phase shift to make this work. Marconi made a number of ship's direction finding receivers which worked with Faraday-screened crossed-loop antennae. A motor drove the goniometer sense coil as it looked for the nulls. Aircraft carry an ADF Automatic Direction Finder. Essentially a square block of ferrite with two coils at right angles to each other... think of it as a 2-dimensional ferrite rod antenna. The goniometer it feeds is simulated electronically. Coverage is LF-MF where the beacon transmitters are plus long and medium wave broadcasters. Pilots are required to know how to use them to get their instrument ratings, but in use they've been supplanted by GPS. They are still officially seen as a fallback. So planes carry multiple GPS receivers, so there are plenty of satellites.... the risk comes from interference problems. So goniometers are still in use, though the people using them are unaware of the name. They'd probably think it was something quite rude if they heard the word. David
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8th Nov 2019, 9:27 am | #4 |
Heptode
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Tonbridge, Kent, UK.
Posts: 688
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
19 set variometer?
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9th Nov 2019, 11:33 am | #5 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,015
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
There is a picture of one here but it leaves me completely puzzled.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellin...l_workings.jpg The two static coils are mounted in parallel to one another - I can't see how that can work. I thought they needed to sit at right angles with the rotating search coil at the cross point. Odd. |
9th Nov 2019, 11:36 am | #6 |
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
What you see are two halves of one static coil.
There are two halves of the other one wound at right angles to them, all over a square box-shaped frame. David
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9th Nov 2019, 11:53 am | #7 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
Ah-ha - yes that would solve it.
Many thanks. |
9th Nov 2019, 12:38 pm | #8 |
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Location: Maroochydore, Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
S.P Radio of Aalborg Denmark made a beautiful little radio the 66TS, I have one, it contains an RF stage and uses AF127 transistors & others. So they fitted it with a DF antenna input for marine navigation use. I don't have that antenna but I have seen photos of it, it consists of two coils crossed at 90 degrees. It looked like they were probably wound inside PVC or fiberglass tubes to weatherproof them for marine use.
There is some very interesting information about radio direction finding and navigation in the introductory part of the service manual for this radio: http://www.peel.dk/SP/pdf/Sailor%206...20(Manual).pdf |
9th Nov 2019, 2:29 pm | #9 |
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
The tubes inside which marine crossed-loops are wound are often metal, with a not very visible insulated gap in each tube loop so they don't form a shorted turn. Faraday screening, in other words.... real Faraday screens!
David
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9th Nov 2019, 2:35 pm | #10 |
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
I assume the coil pairs are set at the Helmholtz distance, 1/2 the diameter apart for an even field, that would, I assume, need a tweak for rectangular coils.
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9th Nov 2019, 2:52 pm | #11 | |
Heptode
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Selby, North Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 951
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
Quote:
That does sound a reasonable value to aim for then. The actual frequency range isnt at all important, so longs as it works well enough to play about with! Its just an experiement for general interest, when (and if!) I get a working model built, i'll post it up (many of my projects are on the slow boat!) Martin
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9th Nov 2019, 7:23 pm | #12 | |
Moderator
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
Quote:
David
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9th Nov 2019, 8:03 pm | #13 |
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
You could get the same result with a four tap 360 degree potentiometer. Modern devices could drive a ring of mercury easily, there would be no contact noise either.
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9th Nov 2019, 10:50 pm | #14 |
Moderator
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
The ordinary goniometer can have the connections to the rotating coil done via a rotary transformer, away from the main part, and that avoids contact noise too.
David
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9th Nov 2019, 11:14 pm | #15 | |
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Location: Maroochydore, Queensland, Australia.
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
Quote:
One way to easily make a multi-turn shielded loop is to use screened multi-core cable as you already have a good number of conductors that are screened and you can wire them in series to make the coil. |
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10th Nov 2019, 10:30 am | #16 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Welwyn Garden City, Hertfordshire, UK.
Posts: 2,015
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
I followed the SP radio trail and it led me here.
Nothing to do with a Goniometer but one day it might be worth trying to make something like this for fun. http://www.peel.dk/SP/pdf/Sailor%20B...navigator).pdf |
10th Nov 2019, 10:52 am | #17 |
Octode
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Carmel, Llannerchymedd, Anglesey, UK.
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
I made one (again out of interest) some years back. One interesting application of these is as a variable phase-shifter. Connect one input to the source and another with a simple R/C network to give a 90 deg shift. The output is then continuously variable in phase with reference to the source.
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10th Nov 2019, 1:44 pm | #18 |
Moderator
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Re: Building a Radio-Goniometer - inductance values?
And if you spin the shaft, you get a frequency shift, one Hertz for every rev/second.
Spin the other way for the opposite direction of shift. Simulate the goniometer electronically and you get the image-rejecting mixer. David
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Can't afford the volcanic island yet, but the plans for my monorail and the goons' uniforms are done |