UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Computers

Notices

Vintage Computers Any vintage computer systems, calculators, video games etc., but with an emphasis on 1980s and earlier equipment.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 11th Mar 2021, 6:18 pm   #921
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,482
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Don't touch UF7 and UF8 just yet, I would say there is also the option of removing UE7 and UE8 to see if doing that allows the SD... bus to become more active.
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 6:34 pm   #922
Mark1960
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,264
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottishColin View Post
Does anyone know of an equivalent of the TMM314APL chips that are in my PET - just in case I break them? They also have a 9F marking on them if that's of use.
Last time I replied about the speed of the 6114 I didn’t realise your PET already has TMM314APL.

I think the 9F might be a batch or date code.

Is there any other suffix, example -1 etc? This would indicate the speed of the parts in your PET.

It should be possible to use the easier to find 2114, but we should make sure we know what speed you need first.

Don’t do anything to them yet.
Mark1960 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 6:36 pm   #923
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,482
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Mark, what do you say to removal of UE7 / UE8 to see if that lets the video RAM outputs show some activity?
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 6:40 pm   #924
ajgriff
Nonode
 
ajgriff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,583
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Yes, but unfortunately the video RAMs -are- prior to UF9
You're quite right of course. I didn't express myself well but I still wonder if the problem lies before the video RAM/ROM circuit. I note that Colin is now seeing a screen something like the attached image which in the 2001-8 is most often caused by a CPU issue although I know that's been thoroughly checked out in this case.

One thing that strikes me about the various 2001N circuits is that 6114 and 2114 RAMs seem to be used interchangeably. 2114s (or equivalents) seem to be relatively cheap so it might be worth considering trying a couple if the video RAMs are still suspects, although personally I'm not sure they are.

Alan
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	At Signs.jpg
Views:	41
Size:	178.7 KB
ID:	228904  
ajgriff is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 6:48 pm   #925
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,482
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

I think we seem to have two separate problems, one is that the output from the video RAMS is not appearing on the SD... data bus and the other is that the CPU does not seem to try to clear the video RAM, so there is still a question over whether it is executing code from the ROMs.

Given the number of only tenuously related ICs which we have found dead so far I can only think there are probably still a few to find. I do wonder what can have caused all this mayhem originally.
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 6:59 pm   #926
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,482
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

If the RAMs are pin compatible with the 2114 then there is a ready baked Arduino 2114 tester sketch lying about somewhere - however, using that would require removal of the RAMs, intact, from the PCB.

I'm minded to try removal of the UE7 / UE8 buffers first, to see if the video RAM data outputs then come to life.
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:07 pm   #927
ajgriff
Nonode
 
ajgriff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,583
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
I think we seem to have two separate problems, one is that the output from the video RAMS is not appearing on the SD... data bus and the other is that the CPU does not seem to try to clear the video RAM, so there is still a question over whether it is executing code from the ROMs.
I think this might be just one problem ie, the CPU doesn't clear the video RAMs for whatever reason. If it did an issue with one of the video RAMs would be likely to result in a non-random character screen as in the attached image.

Alan
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Failed RAM.jpg
Views:	51
Size:	179.1 KB
ID:	228907  
ajgriff is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:09 pm   #928
Mark1960
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,264
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Mark, what do you say to removal of UE7 / UE8 to see if that lets the video RAM outputs show some activity?
I was hesitating to suggest this as it sets off a whole new investigation but maybe before changing UE7, UE8, UF7 or UF8 we should start to look at why we don’t see an attempt to initialise video ram.

Check activity on 6502 R/W UC4-34, there should be some activity after power on reset, though it might not be easy to capture.

Reset could be applied by grounding UA2-2 instead of turning power off and back on each time.

If activity found on UC4-34, then follow that through the chain of buffers. UA10-4, UA3-12, UA3-8

Also check activity on UG1-11, UG7-6, UG7-12, UH4-9. These should be fairly regular square waves.

And then check activity on UE3-7, UE3-9, UE4-7, UE4-9, UE5-7, UE5-9, UE6-7.
Mark1960 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:13 pm   #929
ajgriff
Nonode
 
ajgriff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,583
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1960 View Post
I was hesitating to suggest this as it sets off a whole new investigation but maybe before changing UE7, UE8, UF7 or UF8 we should start to look at why we don’t see an attempt to initialise video ram.
I think that makes a lot of sense.

Alan
ajgriff is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:18 pm   #930
SiriusHardware
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Newcastle, Tyne and Wear, UK.
Posts: 11,482
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

It is usual for RAM, on power-up, to contain random data, I have never known a case where RAM, without any intervention from anything else, starts up as all zeros or all ones. (I'd be happy to be corrected on that, though, because if someone can assure me that these RAMS initialise with all bits = 1, that would take the heat off the video RAMs for the time being).

If I'm right though, if everything from UF7-UF8 through UF9 and UF10 onwards was working, we would expect to see random characters rather than the same character repeated.

We'll get a better picture (literally) when UF9 is replaced with a known working device, because the original UF9 did not appear to be passing what was on its inputs through to its outputs (all inputs high, but some outputs low). We need that out of the way first.

Edit: No problem with Mark's suggestion for looking to see why the video RAM does not get initialised, but it might need to be broken down into more specific steps.
SiriusHardware is online now  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:25 pm   #931
ScottishColin
Octode
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Perth, Scotland
Posts: 1,762
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

For reference, attached is a photo of the chips. I'll leave them be for now.

Colin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1960 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottishColin View Post
Does anyone know of an equivalent of the TMM314APL chips that are in my PET - just in case I break them? They also have a 9F marking on them if that's of use.
Last time I replied about the speed of the 6114 I didn’t realise your PET already has TMM314APL.

I think the 9F might be a batch or date code.

Is there any other suffix, example -1 etc? This would indicate the speed of the parts in your PET.

It should be possible to use the easier to find 2114, but we should make sure we know what speed you need first.

Don’t do anything to them yet.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20210311_182053.jpg
Views:	56
Size:	71.5 KB
ID:	228909  
ScottishColin is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:26 pm   #932
ScottishColin
Octode
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Perth, Scotland
Posts: 1,762
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

fyi - I have a spare 6502; tried that and I still get the reverse @ signs.

Colin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ajgriff View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Yes, but unfortunately the video RAMs -are- prior to UF9
You're quite right of course. I didn't express myself well but I still wonder if the problem lies before the video RAM/ROM circuit. I note that Colin is now seeing a screen something like the attached image which in the 2001-8 is most often caused by a CPU issue although I know that's been thoroughly checked out in this case.

One thing that strikes me about the various 2001N circuits is that 6114 and 2114 RAMs seem to be used interchangeably. 2114s (or equivalents) seem to be relatively cheap so it might be worth considering trying a couple if the video RAMs are still suspects, although personally I'm not sure they are.

Alan
ScottishColin is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:27 pm   #933
Mark1960
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,264
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

I’m expecting the power on sequence of the PET is first clear the video ram, then check to see how much ram is connected and display a message on the screen.

However if the ram is not working the PET would be unable to maintain a subroutine stack, which might then prevent it reaching the clear video routine.

Due to the number of faulty chips found so far, I’m concerned about the condition of the 4116 dynamic ram as these don’t have a good reputation for reliability and are also susceptible to incorrect power supply sequence.
Mark1960 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:29 pm   #934
ScottishColin
Octode
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Perth, Scotland
Posts: 1,762
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Hopefully my regular envelope from Cricklewood Electronics should pop through the letterbox and I'll let you know.

re below: "it might need to be broken down into more specific steps" - yes please.....

Colin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
It is usual for RAM, on power-up, to contain random data, I have never known a case where RAM, without any intervention from anything else, starts up as all zeros or all ones. (I'd be happy to be corrected on that, though, because if someone can assure me that these RAMS initialise with all bits = 1, that would take the heat off the video RAMs for the time being).

If I'm right though, if everything from UF7-UF8 through UF9 and UF10 onwards was working, we would expect to see random characters rather than the same character repeated.

We'll get a better picture (literally) when UF9 is replaced with a known working device, because the original UF9 did not appear to be passing what was on its inputs through to its outputs (all inputs high, but some outputs low). We need that out of the way first.

Edit: No problem with Mark's suggestion for looking to see why the video RAM does not get initialised, but it might need to be broken down into more specific steps.
ScottishColin is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:37 pm   #935
ajgriff
Nonode
 
ajgriff's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,583
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottishColin View Post
fyi - I have a spare 6502; tried that and I still get the reverse @ signs.
Yes I appreciate that the CPU itself is unlikely to be the problem.

Alan
ajgriff is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:45 pm   #936
ScottishColin
Octode
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Perth, Scotland
Posts: 1,762
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Mark - I get the attached on UC4/34 after power on. It does not go away even minutes later.

Colin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1960 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Mark, what do you say to removal of UE7 / UE8 to see if that lets the video RAM outputs show some activity?
I was hesitating to suggest this as it sets off a whole new investigation but maybe before changing UE7, UE8, UF7 or UF8 we should start to look at why we don’t see an attempt to initialise video ram.

Check activity on 6502 R/W UC4-34, there should be some activity after power on reset, though it might not be easy to capture.

Reset could be applied by grounding UA2-2 instead of turning power off and back on each time.

If activity found on UC4-34, then follow that through the chain of buffers. UA10-4, UA3-12, UA3-8

Also check activity on UG1-11, UG7-6, UG7-12, UH4-9. These should be fairly regular square waves.

And then check activity on UE3-7, UE3-9, UE4-7, UE4-9, UE5-7, UE5-9, UE6-7.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	UC4 pin34 after boot 20210311.jpg
Views:	42
Size:	39.8 KB
ID:	228913  
ScottishColin is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:48 pm   #937
Mark1960
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,264
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

I think we have two separate faults,
1. there is no sign of initialisation of the video ram.
2. There should be random data in the video ram, but we see all the same characters.

2. Could be caused by UE7, UE8, UF7, UF8.
1. Is going to be due to some other part of the PET.

If we can fix 1. Then we might be able to see if 2. is caused by the buffers before trying to change them.

We have a lot of people contributing, which might make it difficult for Colin to decide what to try next, so I would suggest that maybe Sirius could take the project manager role to try and advise the operations to perform next.
Mark1960 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 7:52 pm   #938
Mark1960
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,264
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottishColin View Post
Mark - I get the attached on UC4/34 after power on. It does not go away even minutes later.
That looks OK, you should see something similar on UA10-4, UA3-12, UA3-8.
Mark1960 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 8:00 pm   #939
Mark1960
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2020
Location: Kitchener, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 1,264
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottishColin View Post
For reference, attached is a photo of the chips. I'll leave them be for now.
Those are 450ns parts, so could be replaced with any 2114. If you do need to get some I would suggest using a reputable supplier rather than ebay.
Mark1960 is offline  
Old 11th Mar 2021, 8:07 pm   #940
buggies
Heptode
 
buggies's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: West Lothian, UK.
Posts: 760
Default Re: Non-working Commodore PET 3016

I am following this massive thread with interest but will not be interfering - just to remark that the "@" display reminded me of this page:-

http://www.dasarodesigns.com/project...dore-pet-2001/
(I realise that it is a different Pet and the CPU has been replaced - but might the clock phase circuitry be similar?)

They say:-
"This screen is usually the result of a failed CPU. Because the CPU contains the clock divider circuitry that produces the clock-phases used by the video circuitry, if it is not present the characters stored in the video RAM (random noise) will not be displayed and instead the character represented by the code 0x00 is displayed."

Switching back to lurking mode...
__________________
George
buggies is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 1:46 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.