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Old 31st May 2018, 3:37 pm   #81
GrimJosef
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

That Oxfordshire County Council document is indeed quite easy to follow. But, as it says at the top, it is only advice. And some of its assertions are, I believe, open to challenge. For example it says

The old red, black and green colours are undesirable as they may make the product unsafe and so illegal.

Really ? That sounds like an opinion to me, and a qualified one at that given the use of the word 'may'. Opinions are all well and good (I have lots) but the ones which are definitive are those of the courts. They will decide what is safe and what is unsafe.

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Old 31st May 2018, 4:52 pm   #82
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Closing back to the original post the scenario of not changing to current cord colours only becomes an issue if the new owner decides to change the plug and faced with red black and green makes a mistake in wiring it. Depending on the mistake Live chassis sets could become more elevated in potential, single pole switching may be in the neutral etc etc.

So without sound conclusions on the legality or otherwise of the subject of this debate the risk factors could certainly be reduced by using current UK standard cable colours.

In particular people from North America may easily make a mistake , as an apprentice with an American company we were always taught "Black Death" referenced to plague , for the black live/line wire colours.
Pete

Last edited by G4_Pete; 31st May 2018 at 4:54 pm. Reason: live/line
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Old 31st May 2018, 8:07 pm   #83
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

p.s.
Forgot to mention in above post but in my opinion all plugs should be insulated pin high quality types from a good distributor.

good risk mitigation for minimum effort and cost.

I see that the electrical distributors already have printed labels for systems mixing old and new colours so if changing the cord is not a desired option then a wrap around label near the plug may also offer some mitigation for using old colours.

Rs do these for fixed installations RS Stock( No. 487-4221) may be something similar already exists for portable appliances?
pete

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Old 31st May 2018, 9:14 pm   #84
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 'LIVEWIRE?' View Post
I almost wish I hadn't started this thread, because, although it has cleared up a few points of which I wasn't sure, particularly in regard to PAT , it also seems to have opened up a whole 'can of worms'.
No, I think it's been a very worthwhile exercise in discussing the pros and cons of a pivotal question in the usage of old mains-operated kit, and it's exercised all our minds. One general conclusion to take away is the "luck of the draw" issue as regards (heaven forfend) legal consequences and the "how far do I go" question when one could get in hot water whether one does nothing or everything. Personally, I prefer to use everything in the modern armoury- plastic insulated wire (including high temperature or high voltage options as appropriate), heatshrink sleeving, recommended practice fuse-holders, IEC connectors and so on, taking on board decades of working on kit from rubbishy (but at least compliant!) consumer goods to eye-wateringly expensive professional stuff. At least if the worst comes to the worst, at least I feel I could honestly stand up in court and say, I did my best...
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Old 31st May 2018, 10:26 pm   #85
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

G4Pete's comments are another "hitting the nail on the head" excellent contribution to this emotive thread. Particularly as a significant number of vintage radio folk collect & repair/restore vintage American wirelesses & test equipment. Hickok Tube Testers, Attwater Kent, Radiola, are just a few. All 110V. Pete may well expand on the domestic electricity distribution in North America better than I. Basically in many States, the distribution is 220V Split Phase. i.e. 110 - zero - 110V. Domestic power circuitry is taken across the two 110V Live supplies(220V), and lighting/low wattage circuitry taken from zero/neutral & one or the other 110V's. I last worked on such an American installed distribution network back in 1987, in Jamaica. Where I had been asked to carry out an electrical survey. What a miss-match of circuitry cabling's colour coding, and an even worse miss-match of appliance/ machinery(it was a large farming complex with it's own small domestic housing area) flex colour coding.
Incidentally, a similar split-phase supply exists in many rural areas of Scotland. I.e. 240- 0 -240. Known officially as "Single phase, 3 wire" or "480V Split Phase". Nothing to do with 415V 3 Phase. But that's digressing.
In conclusion I'll just say that there are a number of cable/flex suppliers in the UK who can supply modern suitably colour coded 3 core & safe vintage looking flex.

Regards, David
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 9:18 am   #86
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimJosef View Post
That Oxfordshire County Council document is indeed quite easy to follow. But, as it says at the top, it is only advice.
But showing that you're following a government department's advice would stand you on much better ground, in the event of something going wrong, than a seller using the often used and ridiculous "Fully restored and fitted with a correct fuse to meet current safety standards" type of quote sometimes seen on online auctions and the like.

Simple things like fitting wiring instructions onto plugs is so simple and cheap but could make all the difference should somebody try to rewire you plug and get it wrong.

As mentioned earlier disclaimers rarely stand up in court but warnings and advice, like "do not use near water" and " due to age of this equipment please do not leave powered on and unattended" could be added to a simply made "operating instructions" booklet and could save you from prosecution or at the very least lighten the outcome.


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Old 1st Jun 2018, 9:31 am   #87
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

To quote from the Oxfordshire Council document:-

Quote:
Particular requirements

The wires of a three-core mains lead are usually coloured as follows:

§ Earth – green and yellow § Neutral – blue § Live – brown

The old red, black and green colours are undesirable as they may make the product unsafe and so illegal.

§ if you change a lead, have it checked by an electrician § incorrect wiring may cause electrocution

Plugs and sockets

§ Distributors and retailers including second-hand dealers and auctions must only sell appliances which are correctly fitted with an approved plug with sleeved pins and the correct fuse. § All plugs must carry the name and reference number of the approval body, normally BSI or ASTA. The plug does not have to be moulded on but it must be fused. § Some appliances may be supplied without a standard plug, for instance because the appliance is intended to be permanently connected to a fixing wiring. § As British Standards are periodically revised and improved, we recommend you fit appliances with new plugs which meet the latest specifications before sale and dispose of the old ones. § You must provide clear wiring instructions for the plug if it is of the rewirable kind (eg manufacturer’s wiring card usually fitted over the pins). § All sockets (eg on mains extension leads), adaptors and similar devices must meet British Standards.
The bit about mains leads colours looks like a load of rubbish to me. Either the colours make the product unsafe of they don't, there's no "may" about it. The statement implies that old coloured mains leads must be changed.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 10:26 am   #88
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Rs do these for fixed installations RS Stock( No. 487-4221) may be something similar already exists for portable appliances?
Those labels are standard (and mandatory) for fixed wiring installations modified since 2004, where both old and new colours exist. Their main function is to warn of the ambiguity that arises in 3-phase power circuits, where the black and blue wires exchanged functions when the colour code changed. This problem does not arise in single-phase portable appliances.

There has been a standard colour code label around since the introduction of brown/blue flex on appliances three decades earlier. I can't see one here at the moment but are still fitted e.g. on flexes supplied with rewireable plugs. They were intended to guide users fitting a blue/brown flex to a plug that might have terminals marked red/black, or L/N. These labels are the wrong way round for our application - our concern is that a user would be fitting a red/black flex to a plug with a wiring guide showing blue/brown. But a 'special edition' of this label, with the new/old colours exchanged but all other wording unaltered, might suit?
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 10:27 am   #89
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Station X View Post
The bit about mains leads colours looks like a load of rubbish to me. Either the colours make the product unsafe of they don't, there's no "may" about it. The statement implies that old coloured mains leads must be changed.
I always understood that it became illegal to sell (in the course of a business, excluding private sales etc) electrical appliances with a 3 core flex with anything other than the brown/blue/green-yellow colours in July 1970 after a 6 month transition period, and this also applied to second hand sales - dealers were expected to change the flex. Second hand shops were certainly prosecuted in the magistrates courts in the 1970s and 1980s for selling appliances with the old colours, when there were still more old appliances around.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 10:37 am   #90
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio_Dave View Post
... But showing that you're following a government department's advice would stand you on much better ground, in the event of something going wrong, than a seller using the often used and ridiculous "Fully restored and fitted with a correct fuse to meet current safety standards" type of quote sometimes seen on online auctions and the like ...
I might argue, on the other hand, that anyone who needs that kind of advice about what is safe and what isn't probably doesn't know enough to be selling mains-powered vintage equipment to the public .

I would be very, very reluctant to claim that vintage equipment meets current safety standards. The important thing is to be confident that the equipment is adequately safe. In the event of something going wrong then it's the courts who will decide what 'adequately' means.

In the end this is a trade-off between modernising equipment to make it even more safe and preserving vintage things for whatever value they have. At one extreme are people who think that the vintage part of the argument is worthless and that the pursuit of safety is everything. I don't understand why they don't simply gut the set and put a DAB radio inside the old cabinet, having painted it with fireproof paint first 'just in case'. At the other extreme are people who wouldn't tidy up frayed wiring or replace cracking insulation. Almost all of us aren't extremists and the question then becomes 'where do we individually sit on this spectrum ?'. There isn't going to be universal agreement on that. And that's OK with me .

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 10:42 am   #91
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rubberfingers View Post
In the case of a repair, the customer owns the equipment. Changing plugs and undamaged flex, if not agreed previously by the customer may be seen by the customer as carrying out unnecessary and unasked for work. Furthermore, the old flex and plug are still the customers property, as are other parts that are changed, and the customer is quite entitled to ask for them back.
Rubberfingers makes an important point here, in that the equipment is already owned by the customer, and is not a new sale.
I would think that a small section at the bottom of the repair payment receipt could be printed in which the customer, in accepting the repaired article, is by implication accepting any modification to the cable or plug arrangements deemed necessary to conform to current regulations and practice. The customer should be made aware that this is a legal necessity, and will be done, - before the repair is taken on.
I see no problem with regard to giving the customer their own old plug and cable back with the repaired item.

If they decide to re-fit the 5amp 2 pin plug, and the silk-covered '30s twin flex, that is not the repairers' concern. Tony.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 10:47 am   #92
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boxdoctor View Post
... The customer should be made aware that this is a legal necessity, and will be done, before the repair is taken on ...
But it isn't a legal necessity. It's a matter of judgement by the repairer as to whether failing to do it would constitute workmanship of too poor a standard. You're right though that far-and-away the best time to have this discussion with the customer is before the repair is taken on.

Cheers,

GJ
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 10:56 am   #93
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Station X View Post
The bit about mains leads colours looks like a load of rubbish to me. Either the colours make the product unsafe of they don't, there's no "may" about it. The statement implies that old coloured mains leads must be changed.
I think it's because the colours won't match those cardboard wiring diagrams, pushed over the plug pins, that the same document insist on


David
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 11:04 am   #94
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

I wonder what they'd make of the leads on some of my HP test gear?

White and Black wires if I remember correctly. The unique Belden plug at the appliance end of the lead is moulded on, so there's no possibility of changing it.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 11:18 am   #95
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

I see no reason why bits of brown and blue heat shrink can't be fitted on the ends of old cables provided they are sound.
Anyone opening the plug will be able to see both wiring codes.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 1:40 pm   #96
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

In my professional work I came across several examples of "government advice" that did not accurately reflect the true legal situation. Just because a government minister says something, or a government department issues a document containing advice, does not necessarily mean that it has legal force, or that the advice is in your best interest or even legal. A couple of many examples.

In the early 1980's when satellite dishes started to proliferate, one government department (the old DTI) was urging flat dwellers to share dishes to avoid their unsightly proliferation. They were oblivious the fact that this was illegal, as a satellite dish feeding more than one dwelling was legally a cable network, and the law then in force (possibly it still is) granted local monopolies to cable operators, meaning that you would be infringing the legal rights of the cable operator who had bought the rights for your area. (This only applied to satellite reception: it was OK to share an aerial for terrestrial TV and radio reception). I pointed this out to a guy from the DTI that I met on a course, and sent him a copy of an article that had then just appeared in the "New Scientist" , where a representative of the cable companies had said that they would indeed enforce their exclusivity against anyone who set up a shared satellite dish installation.

I recently mentioned in another thread the experience of a work colleague whose application to renew his colour TV licence early to save money when there was a swinging increase in the licence fee was refused in line with a direction from the minister. He took the matter to the courts, where it was held that the minister had exceeded his powers and there was no legal bar on renewing a TV licence early. He was legally qualified and was able to conduct his own case as a matter of principle, but for most people the cost of legal action would be prohibitive.

To establish what the true legal situation is it would be necessary to go back to basics and review the actual legislation: Acts of Parliament, Statutory Instruments (Rules and Regulations), and court decisions that interpret them. Some legislation has to be construed in conformity with European and International jurisprudence. Few people are going to have the resources to conduct such an exercise in a private capacity.

My understanding is that you cannot be prosecuted for not complying with Government advice per se, let alone local government advice, it needs to be shown which provision(s) of which Act of Parliament, Statutory Instrument, or Common Law have been contravened. However, going to law is never cheap and it is often simpler just to go with the flow.

Last edited by emeritus; 1st Jun 2018 at 1:53 pm. Reason: typo correction
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 4:17 pm   #97
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

A number of folk have now questioned "Legality", "Regulation" etc. Folk have also been talking about the possibility of being taken to court.
In general, the UK has an aging population. Which is in no doubt reflected in our Forum membership, BVWS membership, VMARS membership, etc. I reckon that the vast majority of the vintage radio fraternity just don't have the financial status to support hefty legal fees. All over a simple choice of using modern regulated flex & 13A plugs. A number of us have advised that vintage looking modern flex is available out there. As is Bakelite looking 13A plugs.
Another cautionary note, to those who wheel & deal for money - Mr Taxman, Mr NI man & Mr DSS man, Mr HSE man, etc., could all potentially use cyber technology to easily read this thread & many others.
Also, we should also be able to encourage "young blood" into our fraternity, by assuring them that its not run by old risk-taking anoraks, and that we take 21st century safety obligations seriously.

Regards, David
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 4:40 pm   #98
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

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Also, we should also be able to encourage "young blood" into our fraternity, by assuring them that its not run by old risk-taking anoraks, and that we take 21st century safety obligations seriously.
But equally that we're not anally-retentive obsessives who pither* about an issue which for 99.9% of cases can be entirely circumvented by some very simple actions and - worst case - the expenditure of a fiver on a new mains-lead with moulded-on plug.

* A 'Black Country' word, synonymous with 'Mither/myther' - to harp-on unendingly about something trivial, to the annoyance of others.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 6:34 pm   #99
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Station X View Post
The unique Belden plug at the appliance end of the lead is moulded on, so there's no possibility of changing it.
Is that strictly true? wouldn't it be possible to simply cut off the moulded plug and fit another - possibly wired incorrectly?

Maybe I am not reading this correctly, but a moulded-on BS1363 13-amp plug could be cut off any mains lead and replaced with something else, maybe even just crocodile-clips! That wouldn't be safe nor good practice, though.

Colin.
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Old 1st Jun 2018, 6:40 pm   #100
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Default Re: Mains lead (flex) replacement. Legal implications.

Note the words "appliance end"
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