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Old 25th Aug 2022, 7:49 pm   #1
ScottishColin
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Default Pp39

It has arrived and powers up OK. Off to read the manual.

The software on the unit itsself is v 6.0 and on the EPROM unit it's 18.2. The website below has v 18.4 available for download, but I think that 18.2 will do for the Hitachi HN462532G and HN462716Gs that I have bought.

http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/Stag_PP39_programmer.htm

Next is to see if it'll connect to my PC through the serial port OK using Stagview from here:

http://baddinsbits.altervista.org/stagsoft.html

Also, I think that I can load the contents from one ROM and burn it into another EPROM - is that right? If so, then it seems like a good way to make backups of my existing PET ROMs - or at least practice burning.

I'll report back in a few days (off up north for a break).

Colin.
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Old 25th Aug 2022, 9:57 pm   #2
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: Pp39

Well done winning it - I hope it will prove useful for you.

As far as I remember the 39M100 (EPROM module) needed to have firmware 13.1 or greater to be able to program the Hitachi 2532s natively so it sounds as though you have hit lucky with it having 18.2. Programming another EPROM with a copy of the later firmware sounds like it could be an interesting exercise for you but you don't seem to need it for your current purposes.

I will be really interested to hear how you get on with that Stagview software - if it works, whoever put it together deserves a medal as it gives a new lease of life to old programmers like this.

If you do have difficulties with it you can always fall back on the original STAG supplied DOS software which is also still available, although you would then have to find a WIN98 or earlier PC to run that on. As an IT bod you might be able to get WIN98SE running in a quiet corner on your current Windows computer but I don't know if 98SE would be allowed low level access to the COM ports which I know you have just installed in it.

Yes, you should be able to read UD6, UD7 and UD9 by selecting any kind of 2532 EPROM as the device and reading them (That was how I read yours when I had them for a short time).

UD8 is a bit different, so the device type you need to specify to read that may need some thought. I can't remember what I did when I read yours. I may just have read it as a 2716.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 7:03 pm   #3
ScottishColin
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Default Re: Pp39

OK - had a nice long weekend away and I've found some time to mess with the Stag PP39.

I've got the software (Stagview v 1.64 - link below) working on Windows 11 by running in compatibility mode as Windows XP SP3.

http://baddinsbits.altervista.org/stagsoft.html

I've bought two different types of EPROM - Hitachi HN42716G and Hitachi HN462532G - both of which are supported by the version of firmware running on the PP39.

Problem is that I can't get the EPROMs to burn. The software recognises the chip, says it has burnt the file (downloaded from Zimmers) but when I put it into the PET, the PET no longer works.

Here's the process I'm trying:

I've downloaded basic-2-c000.901465-01.bin from Zimmers
Set the PP39 into Remote mode (for connection to the PC)
Connect from my PC to the PP39
Check (using the software) that the 2532 is empty - check ok
Select Load from file and select the .bin file - there's three options that I leave as defaults - Format Binary, RAM Offset 0000 and Offset type -ve
Software shows that 4096 bytes have been transferred successfully
I run a Checksum and get 3838 (which seems right to me)
I remove it from the PP39 and put it into the PET

When it's in UD6, the PET boots with the normal boot screen then goes blank. There's still power as the cassette will work if I press play.

When I put the old UD6 back in, all is OK.

If I take the EPROM back to the PP39 and run checksum, then I get F713 on socket A and FF00 on socket B which has no EPROM inserted......
If I put the original EPROM in and press Checksum on the actual device itself, I get 128E, then reboot it I get a different checksum....


Questions:

Am I handling the EPROM incorrectly?
Is it as simple as the PET socket isn't connecting well to the new EPROM?
Should I be covering the window before I burn it (I'm not)?
Is there some kind of issue with the PP39 if I am getting checksums from an empty socket?
Am I running checksum incorrectly on this device?

As ever, I'm sure I'm doing something daft/simple so I'm wondering if anyone can help.

Thanks (again).

Colin.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 7:36 pm   #4
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Default Re: Pp39

No, you don't need to cover the window on the EPROM when doing short term experiments like this.

Quote:
I run a Checksum and get 3838 (which seems right to me)
3838 is certainly the right 16-bit checksum for the basic-2-c000.901465-01.bin file, I have just checked that independently so the file is certainly making it into the programming software's buffer intact.

In most cases there are PROGRAM, VERIFY and AUTO options for programming - not having seen STAGview I can't know whether this applies here.

When you try your programming option does the programmer specifically say after the programming pass, 'verifiying...' then 'OK'?

With regard to checksumming, the programming software sometimes has separate options for checksumming the buffer content and checksumming the device content. Does yours?

Try returning the programmed device to the programmer, do a READ of the programmed device and then see what the result of a CHECKSUM operation is. Repeat Read / Checksum several times. Do you get the same checksum every time?

Try putting a blank (empty) 2532 in and reading and checksumming it several times over. In the buffer display all of the bytes should all be FF, and the checksum result from reading the device should be the same every time.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 7:50 pm   #5
ScottishColin
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Default Re: Pp39

OK - progress due to operator idiocy.

I had not realised that all I had done is loaded the .bin file into the EPROM programmer's memory and not actually programmed it into the EPROM....

The first chip I tried had a verify error after the burning although it got all the way to 0x1000.

I tried another chip, verified it is empty and it programmed to 0x1000. No verify error. Took it to the PET, inserted it and it boots just fine.

I knew it would be something simple.

I know it's second nature for most of you, but I made a functioning chip!

Colin.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 7:57 pm   #6
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Default Re: Pp39

Try erasing the first chip and try again, it may not have been fully blank in the first place.

Getting this working so soon with relatively little trouble is actually quite a big deal, there are so many things which could have gone wrong (bad EPROMs, ancient programmer not working, that third party Stagview software refusing to get on with your hardware, etc, etc).

You've just calmly sailed past all of those potential icebergs.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 8:05 pm   #7
ScottishColin
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Default Re: Pp39

Thank you for the kind words.

Couple of questions.

1) How do I know which EPROMs will replace the original ROMs for any future work? What I mean is that the original ROM does not have the ROM type written on it - is it simply some Google searching?

2) How do I know the CRC for various .bin files - is there a CRC software utility I can run against the downloaded file to check it?

Thanks.

Colin.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 8:14 pm   #8
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Default Re: Pp39

While wondering what your problem might be I looked through the manual (with additional bits) on Matthieu's site and it looks a phenomenal bit of kit, it can programme two 8-bit wide EPROMs with the same data at the same time (Gang mode) or it can programme two side by side 8-bit EPROMs with the high and low bytes of a 16-bit data word, useful when mucking about with 16-bit systems (68000 based, etc).

I don't think you could have chosen a better programmer for your chosen device era to be honest, it will handle the high-VPP jobs which all the cheap modern USB driven programmers just aren't man enough to take on.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 8:40 pm   #9
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Default Re: Pp39

Responding to your post #7

1- That is a matter of looking at the circuit diagram and seeing how the original device is wired up, and then looking for an EPROM which has its pins placed the same way.

I can tell you that UD6, UD7 and UD9 can be replaced with 2532s. In the past we have used 2716 EPROMs to substitute for UD8 but that only works in that particular position due to a fortunate combination of signals and voltages on the UD8 pins falling a certain way, and the pins on a 2716 finding that agreeable. In other words, it's a bit of a fluke that 2716s can be used in that particular position.

I haven't yet looked at the 2516 pinout to see if that is a more direct substitute for the 2K PROM or not.

2- The software itself should be able to tell you the CRC or 8-bit or 32-bit checksum of any file you load into it, but I think your question is really 'how do I know if the checksum of the file is what it should be?'. Good question, the Zimmers site should really have added the 16-bit checksums on the ends of the filenames.

Since you have an original UD6 PROM, insert it into the programmer, READ it as a 2532 and then 16-bit checksum the buffer. It should come out at 3838.

Then, load the UD6 binary file from zimmers into the buffer and checksum the buffer again. It should come out at 3838 again. If so, the contents of the file and the contents of your UD6 are the same.

You can also load a file into the buffer and VERIFY the contents of an inserted device against the loaded file. If they are exactly the same the verify will pass, otherwise it will fail. This was exactly the method I used to check your PROMs when I had them.
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Old 31st Aug 2022, 11:05 pm   #10
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Default Re: Pp39

The Texas TMS2516 is the Texas TMS equivalent to everyone else's 2716 - just be aware that the Texas TMS2716 is an absolute oddball which is incompatible with everyone else's 2716es, so avoid those.

Your Hitachi version 2716es appear to be standard-layout 2716 EPROMs so as stated earlier they will work as a replacement for UD8 but that is a special case, they won't usually work as a direct replacement for that type of ROM anywhere else.

You should be able to program one of your 2716es with the UD8 code to replace the UD8 'Edit' PROM and you should also be able to program a spare 2716 with Daver2's test code, but remember that the original UD9 (or a copy) has to be in place in UD9 position for Daver2's test code to be able to run in the UD8 position.

If you have a spare 2532 you can try programming Slothie's test code into one of those, no adaptor is then required to place that in the UD9 position.

As I understand it, BASIC 4 comes in three ROMs, UD5, UD6, UD7, and there are specific versions of the UD8 'edit' ROM and probably the UD9 'Kernel' ROM which go with the BASIC 4 PROMs, so to replace BASIC 2 with BASIC 4 you would need to programme a five-chip set.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 9:22 am   #11
ScottishColin
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Default Re: Pp39

The two diagnostic chips are next on my list. I have contacted DaveR2 re PETTESTER and he has confirmed that while he is working on v5, v4 is the latest stable version.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...Bqa231ZXItOQWP

Colin.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 5:35 pm   #12
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Default Re: Pp39

There is a bit of a quirk to watch for when programming the Slothie test code into a 2532 - the code is 2K but the chip is 4K and the reset vector address (to which the 6502 first goes after reset) is in the upper half of the memory block allocated to the UD9 chip.

The simplest way to deal with this is to load the 2K code file into the programmer's buffer - by default it will load at 0000 - 07FF, which corresponds to the addresses in the low half of the 2532.

Then, use the programmer's COPY facility - there always is one - to copy the code FROM 0000 TO 07FF to destination address 0800. This will place a second copy of the code above the original code in the programmer's buffer, occupying 0800-0FFF for a total of 4K of code altogether. Program that 4K block of code (0000-0FFF) into the 2532 and it will work OK.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 9:24 pm   #13
ScottishColin
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Default Re: Pp39

Here's an interesting problem then.

I have downloaded DaveR2's v04 code and loaded it into the Stag.

I have three Hitachi HN42716G chips and have put them through the UV Eraser. For each of them I have put them into the Stag and checked that they are empty - all report that they are.

I then attempt to program the chips and I get failures. One does not start programming and gives up with "Program failed Device Bit check error" before anything happens.

The other two start to program but give up early with the same error message.

In this situation, is it likely/possible that all the chips are duff?

If so, does anyone have a reliable 2716 source I could try please?

Thanks.

Colin.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 10:57 pm   #14
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Default Re: Pp39

Does the Stagview software have a 'Generic' manufacturer you can choose? That would try to programme them with the standard 50mS programming algorithm rather than using the manufacturer specific 'fast' algorithm.

I'll look around for the HN...42716G datsheet. Is that really HN42716G, or HN462716G?

Last edited by SiriusHardware; 1st Sep 2022 at 11:10 pm.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 11:20 pm   #15
ScottishColin
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Default Re: Pp39

No Generic option I'm afraid - plenty of 2716's from other manufacturers but nothing Generic.

The chips are marked as HN462716G.

I tried Intel 2716 in the software and that got further but still errored out.

Colin.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 11:45 pm   #16
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Default Re: Pp39

I did find a datasheet for the HN462716G and it looks completely normal, in fact it looks as though the chip uses the standard 'slow' 50mS algorithm by choice so if you were choosing Hitachi 2716, it should be using that correct algorithm.

Did these come from the same place as the 2532s, or from somewhere else?

If you still have Retromit's test eproms there I believe they are both 2716 EPROMs, one of them in an adaptor.

Read one of those, save its contents as an appropriately named file and then erase it, check it is blank, then try to reprogramme it with the code you read out from it. Does that work? If it does that will at least assure you that the programmer is able to program 2716s.

If you have doubts about the 2716s you bought you can send one or more to me to see if I can programme them, I have two programmers here which should be able to do them, plus one at work. I don't know where to point you to for an alternative supply of 2716s as I have not bought any for years, I had a tube which I bought about 20 years ago but they are all but used up now. I know Slothie once mentioned he had a good number of them but they are probably stranded somewhere where he can't get at them at the moment.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 11:50 pm   #17
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Default Re: Pp39

Probably a silly question, but how clean are the pins on the 2716s? As you will have noticed the ZIF sockets on the programmer grip the IC pins by the narrow sides of the pins rather than the broad flats, so it may be worth making sure those pin edges are all clean / shiny.
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Old 1st Sep 2022, 11:54 pm   #18
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Default Re: Pp39

Also: Very often the programmer software will display some basic information about how it is going to programme the selected IC. If it does then it will usually state the VPP (programming voltage) and the programming algorithm or pulse width. Is there anything like that on yours and if so what does it say when you have the Hitachi type 2716 selected?
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 8:29 am   #19
ScottishColin
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Default Re: Pp39

This is a good point. I will go and clean the pins. I don't suppose there's any harm in putting the EPROM in a socket and then putting the socket into the programmer?

Colin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Probably a silly question, but how clean are the pins on the 2716s? As you will have noticed the ZIF sockets on the programmer grip the IC pins by the narrow sides of the pins rather than the broad flats, so it may be worth making sure those pin edges are all clean / shiny.
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Old 2nd Sep 2022, 8:30 am   #20
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Default Re: Pp39

I'll have a look later on today to see what the setup is.

Colin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Also: Very often the programmer software will display some basic information about how it is going to programme the selected IC. If it does then it will usually state the VPP (programming voltage) and the programming algorithm or pulse width. Is there anything like that on yours and if so what does it say when you have the Hitachi type 2716 selected?
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