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Old 16th Jan 2019, 11:58 pm   #101
Lucien Nunes
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI?

The perfect loudspeaker has no dimensions and no mass. In practical terms, this means that it absorbs no power from the circuit driving it. With such speakers, all the power consumed by the system is loss, which is not quite as critical of power quality. Thus, given perfect speakers, you may use imperfect mains supplies, unless you are concerned about noisy heat.
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 12:28 am   #102
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If you had 3-phase supply, you could have separate amplifiers for Left and Right, and a centre Baxandall bass.
To give full satisfaction to your left ear, your right ear, and your final front-ear..

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Old 17th Jan 2019, 11:43 am   #103
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI

This thread reminds me of the Cilla Black session when Burt Bacharach ran her into the ground with twenty-plus takes of the same song. When time was finally called, George Martin said "I thought take two was the one..."

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The difference being the square root of sod all.
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 1:21 pm   #104
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All the above totally misses the point. About 10 Years ago one of the HI FI 'bibles' stated that it was known that round pin mains sockets were more musical than than modern rectangular pin sockets. As round pin sockets cannot be fitted to a ring main ( legaly) the HI FI fraternity are on a hiding to nothing.
Regards, John.
P.S. How do the electrons know which way to turn on entering the ring main when they exit the consumer unit anyway, and what about the effect of smart meters? Poor Audiofools, they can't win!

Last edited by govjohn; 17th Jan 2019 at 1:30 pm. Reason: To add P.S..
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 3:00 pm   #105
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How do the electrons know which way to turn on entering the ring main
They don't, they are sucked down the right one automatically which is anathema to HiFi, nothing should be automatic it must take an inordinate time to do anything. Saying that I have never seen a volume control that requires soldering in the right resistor to adjust it. Time will tell...
 
Old 17th Jan 2019, 3:08 pm   #106
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One of these is what you want...
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 3:23 pm   #107
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI?

No! There are far too many gauges there! Everyone knows making a measurement has an influence on the thing being measured. Even a simple "power on" indicator could potentially ruin the power supply to your amplifier.

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As round pin sockets cannot be fitted to a ring main ( legaly) the HI FI fraternity are on a hiding to nothing.
What about if you wired the unfused socket via a suitable fused connection unit, as commonly used for fixed appliances? Then there would be a fuse protecting the appliance's power lead.
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 3:31 pm   #108
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I suppose you could fit round pin sockets to a ring if it was fused at the sockets rating. There is no need to install electrics to the IEE(E) regs. it only has to be safe.
 
Old 17th Jan 2019, 5:24 pm   #109
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI?

Now, do round pin plugs sound different to square pin ones?

My home is no good for listening tests. There are so many scopes, spectrum analysers, power meters etc etc that all the electrons circulating in the mains system must have been through measurement equipment many times, and will therefore be ruined for high-end hifi purposes.

I've probably spoiled the electrons circulating through every house downstream of our substation - maybe only the ones on the same colour phase?`

Perhaps audiophiles need isolating transformers to control what can enter their equipment?

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Old 17th Jan 2019, 5:31 pm   #110
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Richard Feynman said that there could be only one electron in the whole universe sharing it'self among all things. Out of courtesy we should be careful with it, I am going back to oil lamps (damn, they use electrons too) so do I arrghhhhhh!!!
 
Old 17th Jan 2019, 8:56 pm   #111
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI?

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Perhaps audiophiles need isolating transformers to control what can enter their equipment?

David
Would that not get the electrons all wound up as they go around all the turns in the transformer
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 9:38 pm   #112
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Would that not get the electrons all wound up as they go around all the turns in the transformer
For AC they just go back and forth, DC however it needs an infinite transformer, unobtainable but perfect for HiFi.
 
Old 17th Jan 2019, 10:56 pm   #113
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All the above totally misses the point. About 10 Years ago one of the HI FI 'bibles' stated that it was known that round pin mains sockets were more musical than than modern rectangular pin sockets.
Regards, John.
P
.... because the electrons can't hide in the corners
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Old 17th Jan 2019, 11:11 pm   #114
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI?

Ah, I can see that now, some electrons could get left in the corners and go stale. Round pins must act like an egg-shaped sewer and the flow keeps them clear.

If the isolating transformer doesn't make the electrons dizzy, the one in the substation will do it anyway. At least the isolating transformer stops your electrons getting mixed with others from outside your control. Someone might have measured them and that will ruin them for ever.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 12:20 am   #115
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI?

I sometimes think I could make a killing from the hifi-types by selling them 32A BS4343 CEE17 Commando Plugs‎: These are of course capable of handling the same current as the upstream fusing on UK ring-circuits; it would be up to the user to ensure that the cable from socket-to-appliance was suitably rated to handle this and that the appliance was in turn suitably fused within.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 10:13 am   #116
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI?

I wonder if solar generated electrons give the music a warmer sound then coal/gas/oil fired generated electrons
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 10:32 am   #117
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerhifinut View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramophone1 View Post
I spent six pounds on a crabtree switched double socket, and I thought that was expensive.
I would hope that what you bought was a "proper" Crabtree socket, manufactured to a high standard of reliability and intrinsic safety

A.
Might be off topic, but intrinsic safety applies to equipment that can be used in explosive atmospheres, either gaseous or dust.

Intrinsically safe power connectors, such as would be used in an oil refinery, are a very specific design such that if disconnected they can not initiate an explosion. ATEX is the relevant standard.

A regular domestic mains plug and socket, switched or not, is definitely not intrinsically safe.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 11:07 am   #118
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI?

I have round-pin sockets at home.
I wondered why my HMV Model 57 sounded so good!
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 11:40 am   #119
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalee20 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramophone1 View Post
I did not intend to start a flame war.
To be honest, I don't think you have! A few of us have probably had a smile, that's all!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_nick View Post
Gramophone1, apology, no intention to cause offence. Many of us like the bells and whistles - they add to our enjoyment in using the gear. I think it is just that many people feel that in the high end hifi audio world that many people good honest people are being exploited.
Much audiophool stuff has defied any attempts to measure it, or even detect it by double-blind testing.

!
The number of nested quotes is a bit bewildering, but this relates to AB or ABX testing of audio. Basically it cannot work, for the following reasons:

1. When concentrating on listening to music (such as during an ABX test) humans process the sound on the side of the brain that related to left or right handedness. When listening in a relaxed way, the tendency is in the opposite hemisphere. So whether you are left or right handed impacts on subjective judgement. (Davis et al, Sound system engineering, 2nd ed, p9, Focal Press 1997)

2. Where you are born, can effect musical perception (Deutsch, Sci Am, Vol 267(2) pp70-75). The median pitch of the language and accent with which we first learn to speak affects musical perception, and skew perception of whether tone sequences are perceived as rising or falling.

3. Even recording engineers, because of inbuilt differences in musical perception typically introduce 3dB humps. This was found during tests on a new studio, setting the monitor loudspeaker EQ as compared to a live cello.

4. Or different mood between the listeners, which definitely skews results. Does your audio system sound better if you have had a positive and constructive day at work, or when have been carpeted by you boss?

Given differences in musical perception between a selection of people, any ABX test on audio equipment is doomed to random results. It always does, and leads to the conclusion that there is no difference in sound quality between audio equipment, that 1950's valve gear sounds exactly the same as a 2018 high end amp. That a 1970's Wharfedale speaker is indistinguishable from a 2015 KEF. That a coat hook sounds as good as a copper cable (I know someone who did precisely that as an AB test demonstration)

The only true ABX test is if all the listeners were clones, raised in an identical place and were never separated, and who by definition would have identical perception.

It is like doing an ABX test on any other of the senses. Look at TV-A, then at TV-B, and then shown one and deciding which TV it is. Or food. Or wine, or whiskey. I like single malts - and have taken part in a blind tasting to see if it was possible to decide which three of ten single malts were in a blend. Completely random results from 50 Scotch-knowledgeable testers. Now sure you could measure that one by putting the single malt samples and the blend through a mass spectrometer, or chromatography testing. But that tells you noting about human perception.

So how do you decide that a change to your audio system has made a positive difference? Make the change and listen for a week or two to get used to it. Then change back. If there was indeed a difference, which you will have got used to, a quick change back will show whether - to your perception profile - the original or the change was preferable.

Last edited by Craig Sawyers; 18th Jan 2019 at 11:48 am.
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Old 18th Jan 2019, 12:39 pm   #120
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Default Re: Switched or Unswitched Sockets for HI-FI

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Sawyers View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerhifinut View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by gramophone1 View Post
I spent six pounds on a crabtree switched double socket, and I thought that was expensive.
I would hope that what you bought was a "proper" Crabtree socket, manufactured to a high standard of reliability and intrinsic safety

A.
Might be off topic, but intrinsic safety applies to equipment that can be used in explosive atmospheres, either gaseous or dust.

Intrinsically safe power connectors, such as would be used in an oil refinery, are a very specific design such that if disconnected they can not initiate an explosion. ATEX is the relevant standard.

A regular domestic mains plug and socket, switched or not, is definitely not intrinsically safe.
This RS part number is an intrinsically safe mains socket (240V, 16A) 893-8007. Basically by plugging in allows the the locking mechanism to operate which both completes the seal and turns on the power. On unlocking the power is switched off. So at no point is the connector mated to live, with the possibility of sparks in an ignitable atmosphere,

The socket is £526.80 and the plug is £115.28.

It is all a bit moot, because the whole system has to be ATEX approvable - and your house wiring is not, and cannot be.
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