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Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc) Amplifiers, speakers, gramophones and other audio equipment. |
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21st Mar 2019, 8:13 pm | #1 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK.
Posts: 2,887
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Garrard 301/401
Looking through an Antique shop I came across a Garrard 301 and 401 deck, as well as some Quad Amps. I was unable at the time to give them a close up examination, it was rather dark and dingy and I had forgotten my glasses, so I intend going back shortly.
Not ever owning a Garrard 301 or 401 could someone give me a few tips on what I should be looking out for, before I decide to buy one, thank you. Cheers John |
21st Mar 2019, 8:47 pm | #2 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK.
Posts: 2,887
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Further to my post #1, I took a look at a 2016 post by Audiolab, were he was asking about a 401, so I shall take a read of that, any info on the 301 will of course be useful.
Cheers John |
21st Mar 2019, 8:50 pm | #3 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 4,999
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Main thing to look for is anything that looks like it hasn't been maintained. Try spinning the turntable and make sure it takes a long time to stop; the gotcha is that the 401 has a felt brake intended to stop the turntable fast. You can overcome that by turning the switch to on, but only do that for the spin test - if you leave it there the idler wheel will get a flat spot, which not be good.
Next thing, take the platter off. These fit on the taper on the main spindle, and might need a good pull to get it free. That will expose the idler wheel. Does that spin freely? Rock it and see if there is any play. If there is you'll need to put new bearing bushes in and possibly a new idler. What is the condition of the paintwork? What plinth are they in? The old chipboard things these decks were mounted in were responsible for the 301/401 being branded as rumblers. With a decent slate plinth they are silent with no perceived rumble (at least none that I can hear on mine!) Good luck! Craig That is kind of just for starters. |
21st Mar 2019, 9:02 pm | #4 |
Heptode
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Southampton, Hampshire, UK.
Posts: 824
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Frankly it depends on the price. If it’s less than a couple of hundred, don’t bother looking for anything, just buy it!
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21st Mar 2019, 11:22 pm | #5 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK.
Posts: 2,887
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Thank you for replying. I have to ask a question, which may seem very obvious to many but I need clarification.
When you talk of a Garrard 301 or 401 does this refer to the turntable only or does it mean complete with arm and cartridge? Cheers John |
22nd Mar 2019, 12:00 am | #6 |
Heptode
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Bristol, UK.
Posts: 900
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Turntable only - that's the way they came from the factory
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22nd Mar 2019, 12:12 am | #7 |
Banned
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Mareeba, North Queensland, Australia
Posts: 2,704
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Re: Garrard 301/401
The 301 and 401 decks were supplied as just that. Arms varied a bit but the classic fitting is for an SME 3009 arm. There are several versions of that too.
I have a 401 and its quite quiet. The above suggestions regarding the idler wheel should be taken seriously. A new idler is some stupid amount of money!!!! The main bearing will most likely still be OK, there being two types. A grease bearing and an oil bearing. The grease bearing is from the early models. A good clean and re lube will probably make it near perfect again. Again, the above warnings re: the plinth!! I have my 401 mounted in 30 kilograms of slate , BUT it doesnt rumble ( anymore) I did have it mounted in an heavy timber plinth and it rumbled. Mostly the rumbling is caused by the magnetic brake which is fitted, but the idler wheel can be a problem. Once setup correctly it is an excellent unit and will give many modern decks a run for their money. A modern top of the line turntable will beat it however. It will most likely need a motor service too!! and check the motor mounting springs are not stretched. It will require a decent mat, as the turntable itself rings like a bell and will need damping. After a whole bunch of mats were tested I settled on a standard cork floor tile and that seems to work well. Its a superb deck Joe |
22nd Mar 2019, 12:50 am | #8 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bristol, UK.
Posts: 2,074
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Re: Garrard 301/401
A piece of wood is a useful tool to assess these - ear on one end - other end on chassis and spin. Horrible grinding noises might indicate a bearing which has run dry for too long and may have suffered damage. But that's about it - very robust old TTs on the whole. 2 types of bearing - oil or grease filled. Purists prefer one over the other but I can't remember which - possibly grease? And the piece of wood can also be used to wallop the spindle when trying to free the taper Craig referred to. I had one for a year or so - not convinced they deserve the legendary status they have now but certainly amongst the best of the old idler drive TTs....and very valuable !!
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22nd Mar 2019, 1:20 am | #9 |
Pentode
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Wrexham, Clwyd, UK.
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Without giving too much away, if it's 3 or 4 doors away from a branch of barclays then yes he's got some lovely high end vintage audio gear in the back room and it's at not so lovely high end prices. I'd like the heath kit pre amp and the pair of leak mono blocks but I can dream!! However if it's not there then I'll have to stop looking for records in charity shops and start visiting some antique shops
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22nd Mar 2019, 7:09 am | #10 |
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Fife, Scotland, UK.
Posts: 22,903
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Even antique shop owners are allowed to look up prices things go for on the internet
I'd expect it to be priced optimistically at the top end, irrespective of the condition. He'll have seen the prices on Ebay and at Loricraft. There are plenty of other fine turntables available at a fraction of 301 and 401 prices. They don't have the same cult following, but they also will play your records. Back in the day, belt drives were seen as improvements over idlers. We still had ears back then, a lot younger and more acute ears. We weren't deaf and we weren't stupid. Maybe the improvement was real? Check the prices, but be ready to walk away. You can get rebuilt spares, but they aren't cheap.... unless you happen to have a Jones & Shipman cylindrical grinder in the garage. David
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22nd Mar 2019, 9:03 am | #11 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 3,675
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Not half! The Thorens 150 was fallen on with cries of joy, as was the 125 - the Acoustic Research had already been shifting in quantity in the States for some time. The main benefit was the absence of rumble, which is present in any idler drive, although pretty well suppressed in the best designs. The BBC had rumble filters built in to gram units using the Garrard. Nevertheless, a decent design and a good performer if suitably mounted.
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22nd Mar 2019, 9:27 am | #12 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK.
Posts: 2,887
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Cliff2903 yes you're right but Barclays is now closed, we know the town as Mach.
He certainly has a lot of gear in the back room he tells me he intends setting up the room so you can try out the amps and decks, I’m hoping to revisit soon. How can I identify which Garrard has the different bearings? Cheers John |
22nd Mar 2019, 10:53 am | #13 |
Octode
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Wallasey, UK.
Posts: 1,314
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Re: Garrard 301/401
There is a wealth of information about Garrard 301 and 401 turntables on the internet. Do some searches.
The 301 grease bearing has a nozzle on the side with a screw cap to gradually introduce new grease into the bearing. But there is not a lot of difference in sound between grease and oil bearing units. |
22nd Mar 2019, 11:35 am | #14 | |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Oxford, UK.
Posts: 4,999
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Quote:
Actually, Garrard tested every 401 for rumble, wow and flutter in a special jig. In a steel framework loaded with concrete blocks, suspended in a cradle by four tension springs, and the turntable board mounted on the concrete blocks. Pity knowing that that they then advised wooden plinths, which were usually made with cheapo chipboard. SME have fairly recently (~1 year ago) acquired the Garrard name and also Loricraft. It'll be interesting what SME comes up with as a Garrard deck. Betcha it'll be idler. And bet it does not rumble. And bet it is really expensive! Craig |
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22nd Mar 2019, 11:58 am | #15 |
Nonode
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bristol, UK.
Posts: 2,074
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Re: Garrard 301/401
I must admit to preferring the Collaro AT100 from the same era. Beautifully engineered and mechanically pared down to the minimum. I had one in my Decca Stereo Decola. I could disengage the idler even at 33rpm, go off and make a nice cup of coffee and, when I came back it would still be slowing down. The branded AT100 came with a very elegant looking curved tonearm - but it wasn't the best performer - worth making a change. Cost these days if you can find one - about 10% of the Garrard.
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22nd Mar 2019, 12:03 pm | #16 |
Nonode
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,587
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Re: Garrard 301/401
I believe that the BBC took the 'huge concrete block' approach with Garrard idler decks but that's hardly a practical solution in the average domestic living room. It seems to me that a decent belt drive turntable fitted to a substantial but sensible plinth is a good compromise. This is especially so if you also consider the grossly inflated prices paid for 401s and 301s.
If SME produce a Garrard badged deck it will be really, really, really expensive! Alan |
22nd Mar 2019, 12:35 pm | #17 | |
Nonode
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 2,587
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Quote:
Alan |
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22nd Mar 2019, 2:11 pm | #18 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Kington, Herefordshire, UK.
Posts: 3,675
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Rumble from the transmission is inherent in idler drive, but then the cone loudspeaker isn't the most elegant principle either, and both can be made to work pretty well.
Decoupling of the idler drive pulley (Thorens 124), soft idler materials (Connoisseur) and mass damping (Garrard) can control the problem, but my point is that belt drive doesn't have them to start with. Nor, for that matter, does direct drive, done properly. It's fair to say that it is cheaper and more straightforward to make a rumble-free belt or direct drive machine, also that the pinnacle of any of these technologies performs to a high standard, but to my ear the freedom from LF rubbish of, say, a Thorens 125 or a Technics SP10 over a 301, 401, TD124 or EMT 930, all of which I have owned at one time or another, is very conducive to relaxed listening. I will admit to using an EMT 927 still, but 16" turntables of any stripe are thin on the ground, and there are no 16" stereo discs, so in practice it works well. |
22nd Mar 2019, 3:33 pm | #19 |
Nonode
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Aberaeron, Ceredigion, Wales, UK.
Posts: 2,887
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Re: Garrard 301/401
Just finished reading the Garrard 301 Instructions, thanks to Ray, i note it says “should be mounted on Wooden Plynth”, and it’s test report says “rumble almost non existent”.
From what I have read so far on this forum how was it possible for the Garrard test department to say that when I’ve read so much to the contrary? Cheers John |
22nd Mar 2019, 4:18 pm | #20 |
Octode
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,765
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Re: Garrard 301/401
As I understand it they can be very low rumble indeed, but only when in tip top serviced condition. I imagine a lot of examples found "in the wild" now will be In need of attention to meet those expecatations
Never understood the fascination myself given the prices they reach now. That said, if I saw one cheap enough in an antique shop I'd jump at the chance, they are iconic decks |